"Enhanced Generator" from JPKBook

[Michael Luton]

Hi Jules,
Thanks for adding the arrangement number to your chart, it helps me see what your doing better. I agree with Gary on your set up. Now if it were me I would pick arrangement 2 or 4 and work on dialing it in real good so I had a good starting point for development. I would also recommend discharging C1, C2, C3 some to get a more realistic view of the charging capability of your circuit. In the last tests you were working with the top end of your batteries charge curve where the curve is much shallower. Now have some fun with it.

Michael

[JulesP]

Thanks Gary,

I know you have been adamant about this shorting route from top to bottom of the coils through the diodes and experiment would seem to bear that out although theory would suggest that at the HV frequency the coils are open circuit to the flow down that route due to the high coil inducatance. Maybe they are open circuit to the 'positive' flow but a short to the 'negative radiant' energy?

Besides the option you mention at the end to 'back pop' the drive battery, I think we agreed that the synchronised FET option I devised could also work to isolate that route and it might be interesting to see how both options work. I will put together some circuits to run by you.

At some stage I am also interested to either assemble a battery swapping system for charging two batteries, with each one acting as the drive battery without being charged, or a capacitor charge/discharge unit and probably both.

Jules

[JulesP]

Hi Jules,
Now if it were me I would pick arrangement 2 or 4 and work on dialing it in real good so I had a good starting point for development. I would also recommend discharging C1, C2, C3 some to get a more realistic view of the charging capability of your circuit. In the last tests you were working with the top end of your batteries charge curve where the curve is much shallower. Now have some fun with it.

Michael

Michael, there are various options open to me which is a good place to be. Arrangement 2 is amenable to a battery swapping system but first, before I remove the tripple wound coil I might look at the 'back popping' the battery option and also a route I devised to isolate the shorting route that Gary identified. Busy autumn coming up!

Jules

[JulesP]

Hi Jules,

My guess why you get better charging and higher speed with a lower drive current is that you are driving your coils past the saturation point for your particular coils. You want the coils to operate just under the saturation point, any current applied beyond the saturation point puts a drag on your system and wastes energy.

Michael

Hi Michael,

I looked at the effect on the rotor of adding some resistance in series with the coils (between the bottom of the coils and the FET Drain) to see if reducing the current and the associated magnetisation would increase the rotor speed but the effect was to immediately start to slow the rotor down. When adding additional resistance from extra batteries, that seems to have a very different effect, possibly because it's in the output stage but at the moment I can't get my head around why that is so. Something to do with less load that the circuit sees I imagine and the way these circuits behave in contrast to ordinary motors.

Jules

[JulesP]

Hi Jules,


The only way to charge the primary run battery is by using only the two isolated windings in the main run coil with bridge diodes connecting them back to the run battery.

Hi Gary,

I have come up with a circuit that I think does what you suggest for 'back popping' and integrated it into my 'basic' Hall switched circuit, but I also have in mind the sketch that you sent to me earlier. The three coils with grey lines through them are lizted on one coil. Have I got this right?

Thank you

Jules

[Michael Luton]

Hi Michael,

I looked at the effect on the rotor of adding some resistance in series with the coils (between the bottom of the coils and the FET Drain) to see if reducing the current and the associated magnetisation would increase the rotor speed but the effect was to immediately start to slow the rotor down. When adding additional resistance from extra batteries, that seems to have a very different effect, possibly because it's in the output stage but at the moment I can't get my head around why that is so. Something to do with less load that the circuit sees I imagine and the way these circuits behave in contrast to ordinary motors.

Jules

Hi Jules,
My thoughts, and I could be wrong with your set up, are its more about controlling the timing than controlling the current directly. The saturation point is controlled by the amount of time the FET is turned on. A shorter on time will allow less current to flow into your coils and reduce the saturation and decrease the cycle time to your next pulse, a shorter cycle time gives a higher frequency and therefore a faster rotation of your wheel. Adding resistance where you did does not decrease the time for the gate of the FET to switch off so you don't decrease the saturation. As far as timing your goals are to charge your coil to just below the saturation point, immediately discharge the coil as fast as possible, and set up for the next cycle. You are correct that adding impedance at different points in your circuit has different effects. It all needs to be thought out as to how these impedances effect the time constants of the different elements in your circuit and how that result effects your timing.

Play and have some fun with it.

Michael

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Jules,

Hi Gary,

I have come up with a circuit that I think does what you suggest for 'back popping' and integrated it into my 'basic' Hall switched circuit, but I also have in mind the sketch that you sent to me earlier. The three coils with grey lines through them are lizted on one coil. Have I got this right?

Thank you

Jules

The circuit you came up with should work quite well! It is a common ground "generator mode" circuit. And if you want to change it to "radiant mode" just connect the negative end of the charging battery to the top of the coils which is also the drive battery positive. (And yes, you are correct about the three windings litzed on one coil in that schetch. One is the trigger winding, one is the power winding, and the other one is the recovery winding in Classic Bedini fashion.)

In your new circuit you can also install the common terminal of a single pole, double throw switch to the charging battery negative and then one switched terminal to the drive battery positive and the other switched terminal to the drive battery negative. This will allow you to easily switch back and forth from "generator mode" to "radiant" mode with only the flick of a switch! This is how I have my Bedini SSG configured and it works great for experimenting and making comparisons. And in radiant mode you could charge several batteries in series as you've already discovered.

Besides the option you mention at the end to 'back pop' the drive battery, I think we agreed that the synchronised FET option I devised could also work to isolate that route and it might be interesting to see how both options work. I will put together some circuits to run by you.

At some stage I am also interested to either assemble a battery swapping system for charging two batteries, with each one acting as the drive battery without being charged, or a capacitor charge/discharge unit and probably both.

I like all these ideas.

[SkyWatcher]

Hi all, I changed the wiring of the 4 coils to parallel wired.
It gives much better rpm compared to series wired and more effective charging of the charge battery.
A full wave bridge was tried off the other 3 coils into the charge battery, however, they did not generate enough voltage to push any current.
A couple more coils would do the job though.
Still testing different arrangements, though this one is looking pretty good at the moment.
peace love light
Here is circuit I am testing.

[JulesP]

'Back Pop' and mode switch

Hi Jules,

In your new circuit you can also install the common terminal of a single pole, double throw switch to the charging battery negative and then one switched terminal to the drive battery positive and the other switched terminal to the drive battery negative. This will allow you to easily switch back and forth from "generator mode" to "radiant" mode with only the flick of a switch! This is how I have my Bedini SSG configured and it works great for experimenting and making comparisons. And in radiant mode you could charge several batteries in series as you've already discovered.

Hi Gary,

You mean like the attached?

From what I have read the 'Generator' mode is more efficient and makes best use of the extracted energy but it would be worth experimenting to see the difference, especially to compare having 2/3 additional batteries in both modes.

For my bridge rectifier do I need 1000V rated diodes or can I use the IN5408?

I should be in a position to test my 'double FET isolator' circuit early next week and will report back - and of course the other developments as I come to them and get results. I have a good circuit for the battery swapper and for the cap dump I am reading up on time vs voltage based methods. I'm hoping that when the time comes you or others will be able to guide me on the optimum circuit and related matters

Jules

[JulesP]

Hi Skywatcher,

Nice to see another exploring different angles on this design approach. The model I'm working with uses parallel coils which can lead to quite high currents when the combined resistance of them is less than 2 ohms! However, at optimum battery loading the current does drop to less than 0.3A which keeps the FET cool. Have you been able to get any charging, or delayed discharge, of the drive battery with or without charging additional batteries?

Jules

[SkyWatcher]

Hi julesp, have not tried to charge the input battery with this setup yet.
More focused on swapping batteries and observing any decrease or increase in overall battery charge.
I have not even tried a load across the charge battery, as shown in the pdf from patrick kelly, though would be nice if that works as claimed, we shall see.
peace love light

Also, with this parallel coil wiring, I'm seeing a little gain of the overall battery voltages.
Where as with the previous series connection, I was observing about the same gain, though in the opposite direction as a loss of voltage.

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Jules,

Hi Gary,

You mean like the attached? .......... Jules

Yes. That's exactly how I did it.

For my bridge rectifier do I need 1000V rated diodes or can I use the IN5408?

I think the 1N5408 diodes are rated at 1000 volts? They should work just fine.

[JulesP]

Back Popping Measurements

Hi Gary and co,

I have tried the two approaches to delivering some charging to the drive battery with the following results.

Firstly, using the double FET method to isolate the line from the battery to the top of the coils did not function as, despite a simultaneous pulse from the transistor collector reaching both FETs to turn them on, the additional one did not conduct to initiate the coil current. It may be something very simple or perhaps I need a different type of FET to trigger the + line in that position. Whatever it is I decided to put that aside for the time being and focus on the 'back popping' option.

I measured some nice HV pulses of the same magnitude and resulting capacitor voltage as from my earlier tests. I am assuming then that the back emf pulses being generated in these two isolated coils (from the litzed three coil) result from the collapsing field in the remaining single coil and not from the rotor magnet moving away. As such I would expect the pulses to be of similar voltage and magnitude to those I measured before the circuit modification. However, as soon as I connected the HV from the main coil group back up to either the drive battery or any additional batteries to charge, and in any configuration (Generator or Classic/Radiant mode), the pulses from the two isolated coils disappear (like in the second pic)

I am wondering if this is because once the HV from the main coil group is being 'assimilated' by one or more batteries then that loading alters the way induction occurs in the 'back popping' pair of coils. If that is even remotely so then I can't see how any HV pulses are going to reach the drive battery to try and offset its discharge. I attach a pic of the setup where I see good pulses.

I'm sure your much greater experience will come up with an answer.

Thanks

Jules

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Jules,

Hi Gary and co,

................

I am assuming then that the back emf pulses being generated in these two isolated coils (from the litzed three coil) result from the collapsing field in the remaining single coil and not from the rotor magnet moving away. As such I would expect the pulses to be of similar voltage and magnitude to those I measured before the circuit modification. However, as soon as I connected the HV from the main coil group back up to either the drive battery or any additional batteries to charge, and in any configuration (Generator or Classic/Radiant mode), the pulses from the two isolated coils disappear (like in the second pic)

I am wondering if this is because once the HV from the main coil group is being 'assimilated' by one or more batteries then that loading alters the way induction occurs in the 'back popping' pair of coils. If that is even remotely so then I can't see how any HV pulses are going to reach the drive battery to try and offset its discharge. I attach a pic of the setup where I see good pulses.

I'm sure your much greater experience will come up with an answer.

Thanks

Jules

Yes, you are correct. The pulses you are collecting from the two isolated coils result from the collapsing field in the remaining single coil and not from the fleeing magnets. They are all magnetically coupled on a single core.

The reason you are not able to harvest the pulses from the other four coils is probably because they are driven by the same FET that is powering the master coil and using the drain lead to attach the three parallel collection diodes to.

The main coil needs to have it's own FET for switching and the other four coils need a separate FET with the paralleled collection diodes attached. You don't want a collection diode attached to the drive winding of the master coil, as this will steal the pulse from the two isolated windings you want to harvest with the bridge diodes for " back popping" the run battery.

[Michael Luton]

Hi Jules,
your results make sense in your circuit as shown. The oscilloscope is a very high impedance load (basically an open) and the batteries are an extremely low impedance load (basically a short) so when you hook up the batteries you short the coil across that battery. The problem is not in the circuit, but in the measurement technique. Try replacing the oscilloscope with a battery and checking for charging, which is what you really want anyway.

The same applies to checking for charging when applying the back popping signal to the drive battery. you should measure the voltage decrease over time without the back popping, then measure the voltage drain of the drive battery over the same length of time with back popping, if you have less drain then your back popping is giving you a charging effect. The disadvantage to this is it is not a quick measurement and takes a significant amount of time to establish your baseline and then observe for charging effects.

Michael