Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

[Aaron Murakami]

But with the coil pack HV (-) output and the booster cap (-) output both grounded onto the engine head, say, central to all 4 spark plugs...

1) might the cap (-) output flow backwards from the booster into that HV (-) wire into the secondary winding of the coil pack?
2) might the HV (-) output flow into the LV (-) cap output along the wire into the booster?

In both cases I hope that the HV (+) event in the gap will be enough to make both above mentioned worries, an impossibility. But I would like some logic and wisdom regarding this, so i can just do the connection, and move on to something like ionizing the intake air.

Can you post a diagram?

[Aaron Murakami]

Hello all.

I just produced a short video detailing my custom fabricated timing system I intend to use with an MSD controlled plasma ignition system on a generator.

PS: I posted a message here a couple days ago regarding some very unique spark plug designs I discovered along with a link to a related document archive but then there was this message saying something to the extent of: "will be posted after review". Not sure what that's all about and my post still hasn't come through for some reason which is very frustrating...
(I hope it's not lost because I did not save a local copy after all my work authoring it for the benefit of this thread...)

That is all for now and hope to complete more fabrication this weekend so stay tuned.

Kindest regards;

}:>

Not sure what the issue with the post is. They don't require moderation before showing up.

[Aaron Murakami]

I just produced a short video detailing my custom fabricated timing system I intend to use with an MSD controlled plasma ignition system on a generator.

That's a great video on a simple 2:1 reduction to eliminate the exhaust spark.

I didn't do that at first because I didn't plan on putting hho on my genset at that time. I'd like a simple electronic counter flip flop to do it since I already have my ignition timing setup...have to do a video on that at some point.

[Scorch]

Some unique plug designs and document links

Hello all.

This is a re post of an earlier message that seems to have disappeared:

I discovered some very interesting plug designs from a Chinese company-
http://www.liben-parts.com/index_en.asp

Including a couple designs such as the "XFire 2G Iridium" that features a hole in the ground terminal reminiscent of David's "sonic plug" modifications.
http://www.enginebrain.com/

Davids shop is actually in the Denver metro area and I did meet him a couple weeks ago and had him modify a few of my NGK BP6HS plugs which are the non-resistor version for my generator but I don't know if his modification is even useful or practical at these power levels. And more than likely I will be using an NGK BUHW tungsten plug without J terminal.

I also discovered that http://www.tuks.nl/ has some document archives such as this-
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Mat...ric_Breakdown/
These appear to be open server directories were we can browse around and it appears there is a LOT of interesting materials there such as this directory one step up-
http://www.tuks.nl/pdf/Reference_Material/

A lot of that stuff is way beyond me but maybe useful for some of you exploring such things.
And as always; never hurts to download and save reference materials before such resources disappear as they often do.

I was hoping to get more work done this weekend but other priorities may take precedence.
Sometimes I may go weeks without getting any experimental work done or waiting for parts. Such is life.

Kindest regards;

}:>

[Scorch]

Post failed again.

Hey Aaron.

If this is the case then maybe there is something specific to this message or one of the URLS because it just did the same thing again.

I attempted to post this message then got this response. (see attached)

But then, if this message comes through . . . then don't know what is going on regarding why that specific message is generating that system response requiring a moderator approval...

Not sure what the issue with the post is. They don't require moderation before showing up.

[Scorch]

And if your flip-flop ever skips a beat.... it will repeatedly fire at precisely the WRONG time... sometimes simpler mechanics maybe better than simple electronics.

Kindest regards;

}:>

That's a great video on a simple 2:1 reduction to eliminate the exhaust spark.

I didn't do that at first because I didn't plan on putting hho on my genset at that time. I'd like a simple electronic counter flip flop to do it since I already have my ignition timing setup...have to do a video on that at some point.

[Aaron Murakami]

Hey Aaron.

If this is the case then maybe there is something specific to this message or one of the URLS because it just did the same thing again.

I attempted to post this message then got this response. (see attached)

But then, if this message comes through . . . then don't know what is going on regarding why that specific message is generating that system response requiring a moderator approval...

Ok - I was seeing the messages but you weren't. I approved 2 moderated posts. You have some that post automatically and some that require moderation. Makes no sense to me. Will have to look into that.

This is the first time I've seen that there were moderated posts. I hope that hasn't been the case the entire time for all users. Looks like it might be just with posts that have links in them.

[Scorch]

Thank you for the compliment.

And, BTW here is another video of that thing in action-

I am frustrated with youtube processing because these HD videos look great in the original file but YT processing is changing the video enough so that a LOT of the arc flashes are being removed... And you have to switch to 1080p HD just to see the few flashes that remain...

I don't know which Moray B. King presentation you may have seen.
The first I saw was from the 2012 GBEM conference titled "One million cavitating water electrolyzers"
See: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6628277/

Which did propose a type of cell conditioning in which flat plates are sand blasted at a 45 degree angle with 40-45 grit silicon carbide to create "barbed, sharp edge craters" in the plates.
Which is something I intend to do with a 21 plate, off-the-shelf "OGO" brand cell. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00LWVALMI/

There has been a couple newer Moray Presentations since then so not sure if you have seen those.
A lot of the material is similar to the 2012 presentation but also includes some new materials and references.
See:
Moray King on Scientific Paradigms-
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6675228/
And:
Moray King "Practice" presentation for the 2014 Tesla Tech Conference-
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6675284/

In this last presentation he pointed out how Stanley Meyer's water injector design is basically the same thing as an "electrospray" satellite propulsion system.
And he also had some very interesting things to say about William Hyde's electro static power generator which is elegant in its simplicity for a 20KW device.
And also got into some materials regarding transmutation of elements by way of cavitation so this last presentation from Dr. King is well worth reviewing.

Kindest regards;

}:>

That's a nice looking demo unit with the relay!

The non foulers might indeed be able to be used as a starting block. Might be more of what needs to be filled in than what is taken out to shrink that cavity.

With Meyer's - his water injector plugs - they were never able to get them to work. Only the water cell method worked.

The Graneau work is exceptional. I wish he were still alive to continue his water explosion work. He was using some very high joule discharges that wouldn't work in an engine because it would destroy it, but he was able to explode small amounts of water with such force that the water shot through pieces of aluminum!

I saw one Moray King demo on the vibrating cell from the Japanese researched. Jeane Manning is who turned me on to it. Simple enough and I believe the researcher even said you can use an off center flywheel to give the vibration. I don't know if cavitation is actually happening with these vibrations and if that attributes to extra production or if the vibration actually just helps to free the bubbles from the plates. In any case, it's simple and low power enough to vibrate the cell so might as well do it.

With concentric tube cells, with enough production, the gas is forced to carry any bubbles off the tube surface as it goes up towards the top. I was able to produce a lot of gas for low input with "conditioned" tubes and just pulsing a variac through a choke to the tubes.

Here's the conditioning: (video link removed - system only allows one video per reply.)

[Scorch]

Would be interesting to find out WHY that is happening and specific to that particular message.
I have posted numerous other messages without any such delays...

Kindest regards;

}:>

Ok - I was seeing the messages but you weren't. I approved 2 moderated posts. You have some that post automatically and some that require moderation. Makes no sense to me. Will have to look into that.

This is the first time I've seen that there were moderated posts. I hope that hasn't been the case the entire time for all users. Looks like it might be just with posts that have links in them.

[Aaron Murakami]

And if your flip-flop ever skips a beat.... it will repeatedly fire at precisely the WRONG time... sometimes simpler mechanics maybe better than simple electronics.

Kindest regards;

}:>

The mechanical is invariably locked but with the method I have now, I have infinite variability, which is required for full testing. With plasma, the ignition can be retarded towards TDC a bit since the plasma is so fast and accelerates the combustion process. I still have my full stock magneto ignition so I can just put whatever cable I want on the plug to go between magneto, cdi or cdi with plasma. If I know exactly where I want the timing to be based on whatever configuration, then I'd probably opt for a fixed timing system.

But, with being able to add on ethanol, which usually requires advanced timing to kick it off earlier, the plasma can ignite it in sub freezing temperatures no problem and because of the accelerated combustion, the timing would have to be around stock timing... a bit more advanced than gasoline with plasma. So there is a need for some variability. Some of the CDIs/MSDs like the one I used on my Subaru has a lot of settings to vary the timing with the dip switches but I don't think it has the adjustable ranged needed for all cases.

[Scorch]

Just build a new engine for water fuel

So... in other words; all we need is a new engine design with high temperature or non-metallic materials such as ceramic pistons, valves and cylinders.
Or maybe an entirely different approach to engine design that actually eliminates conventional valves altogether.

http://pesn.com/2011/04/23/9501814_R...esign_its_own/

}:>

You can run an engine with just water and the plasma if the plasma is big enough but it would damage the engine. Revizal was the first to show the motorcycle type engine running like that for short bursts from what I can recall.

[Scorch]

Mechanical approach

My mechanical approach will also be able to change timing on the fly as well as pulse width.

By simply installing a magnet on the driven gear and a lever mounted reed switch that moves around the center axis; I will be able to change timing simply by moving the lever and pulse width (spark duration) by moving the reed closer or farther away from the magnet. It will be similar to the *Anton Cell setup but uses a reed switch connected to the MSD system "points" input versus the original Hall senor and control **circuit of the anton cell/elevator video.

*See: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Image:G...p-side_500.jpg
**See: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Image:A...cuit_b_bf8.gif

The interesting thing I see in those original videos is that I don't think he was using a PWM.
It appears that he is controlling his cell with a variac which means that his cell may have also been producing a lot of electrically charged water vapor-steam...

Please tell us more about "pulsing a variac through a choke". Can you diagram this?

Kindest regards;
}:>

The mechanical is invariably locked but with the method I have now, I have infinite variability, which is required for full testing. With plasma, the ignition can be retarded towards TDC a bit since the plasma is so fast and accelerates the combustion process. I still have my full stock magneto ignition so I can just put whatever cable I want on the plug to go between magneto, cdi or cdi with plasma. If I know exactly where I want the timing to be based on whatever configuration, then I'd probably opt for a fixed timing system.

But, with being able to add on ethanol, which usually requires advanced timing to kick it off earlier, the plasma can ignite it in sub freezing temperatures no problem and because of the accelerated combustion, the timing would have to be around stock timing... a bit more advanced than gasoline with plasma. So there is a need for some variability. Some of the CDIs/MSDs like the one I used on my Subaru has a lot of settings to vary the timing with the dip switches but I don't think it has the adjustable ranged needed for all cases.

[Aaron Murakami]

My mechanical approach will also be able to change timing on the fly as well as pulse width.

By simply installing a magnet on the driven gear and a lever mounted reed switch that moves around the center axis; I will be able to change timing simply by moving the lever and pulse width (spark duration) by moving the reed closer or farther away from the magnet. It will be similar to the *Anton Cell setup but uses a reed switch connected to the MSD system "points" input versus the original Hall senor and control **circuit of the anton cell/elevator video.

*See: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Image:G...p-side_500.jpg
**See: http://peswiki.com/index.php/Image:A...cuit_b_bf8.gif

The interesting thing I see in those original videos is that I don't think he was using a PWM.
It appears that he is controlling his cell with a variac which means that his cell may have also been producing a lot of electrically charged water vapor-steam...

Please tell us more about "pulsing a variac through a choke". Can you diagram this?

Kindest regards;
}:>

A Bourke Engine is what I would use. (your other post)

With these cdi's and msd's, there is no pulse width. As soon as the modules trigger hits ground, it just discharges the same whether the trigger is in contact for a long or short period of time.

If you full rectify a variac's output so you have 120 cps DC, you ground the ground to the negative electrode and the positive line, you simply put a choke in series with the positive wire going to the positive cell - that's about it. You can put it on the ground as well. It will limit current so you can get higher voltage to the cell with less current, but that choke will heat up depending on how much current it's restricting. If you look at Meyer's VIC, he has those chokes on the neg and positive, I just used one on the positive.

[dowens]

Scorch, good start would be a two stroke. Then a Tesla turbine.

[Willem Coetzee]

Can you post a diagram?

Sorry Aaron, I didn't see your request. I used Microsoft Paint and drew the picture of how my cap booster box I connected onto my wife's Fiat Uno 1.4 engine.



The blue box is my cap booster [black in real life], and its cap charge circuit is represented by an AC symbol of sorts in this drawing.

In my actual box is an MMC capacitor, but I don't know its peak rating - after everything soldered together. the box's output measured 910Vdc, so a few transformer secondary loops were took off to reduce output to just over 400Vdc so oscillator mosfets run cooler [they have their own heat sink external to the plastic box not shown here].

The diode symbol in the box drawing represents its 30kV 6A diode string.

We used dark grey 11kV insulated Neon Sign Wire for both the cap (+) output wire connected to a 4 terminal block, and as well as for the individual wires connected in parallel with HV ignition wires onto the spark plugs.

The individual diodes connected parallel onto the spark plug wire connectors are 20kV 0.5A MWO diodes - so total protection in series for the cap (+) output and thus cap charger circuit [excluding the FWRB] is 50kV 6.5A.

Now my confession:
Cap (-) & charger (-) I in my opinion WRONGLY made common, grounding both onto battery (-)...

In retrospect it appears to me that spark plug bases only get whats left of the "hot current" after the parallel split on the battery (-) pole, between the battery and the long-resistance path via battery ground cable, over metal gearbox casing and engine metal, to screwed-in spark plug basis.

It maybe helps to get the booster's cap "charged" at not less than battery (-) volts... and it might add a longer-duration LV (+) on spark plug center electrodes [therefore maybe the funny red-blue dark purple little plasma ot helsp to achieve..

BUT.. it is a ridiculous connection of the booster's LV (-) output, since its charge circuit can keep the cap charged-up up to even whats required by Mika's rotary rev-limit range.

Proposed Solution:

Separate cap (-) output from Charge Circuit (-) input, and GROUND cap (-) output onto engine [even an old kettering's condensor is grounded on the engine!]

Request for Your Advice:

IF cap (-) were connected onto an engine nut closest to the amp box for shortest discharge path, will each spark plug get the same cap LV, or will it reduce as the spark plug is situated further from that LV connecting nut?

Or would a parallel terminal block setup [like i did with the cap (+) output] better accomplish equal power output among the spark plugs, each having a wire connected on the closest nut to it?

[I know for sure that connecting the LV directly on the spark plug base would be path of LEAST RESISTANCE but not all engine heads leave enough space for more cabling between engine head and spark plug for cables to reach the base and not get heated up by engine head pressing against it]

Normal electric logic says that in a parallel circuit Amps are divided according to the Resistance of each component, but that the Volts on all those components will be exactly the same as that of the Voltage Source.

But HOW does that apply to plasma ignition - is there diversion from this law or is it one that we can still apply here?

[don't worry, I'm not barking up the "don't dare change the laws" tree ]

I think it very much have relevance to connecting wasted spark HV output in parallel onto the spark plugs as discussed in previous posts on this thread, since spark gap in compressed piston gasses, and spark gap in exhaust gasses, experience unlike gap resistances...

So if the above mention parallel "law" does apply to plasma ignition, especially adding cap booster, on wasted spark ignition in HV PARALLEL mode, the WRONG gap will get "hot current"... most going to spark gap in the Exhaust Stroke that does NOT NEED it, and the least amount going to the spark gap in the Compression Stroke were it actually IS NEEDED...

That will be such MORE WAST of battery and alternator and fuel for already WASTED SPARK ignition, working against the solution of connecting spark plug pares in parallel onto the coil pack HV (+) poles that you suggested in previous posts in this thread for wasted spark ignition.