Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

[heysoundude]

Trust, but verify by doing your own research.
Farads, Capacitance, how to build circuits with capacitors...
incorporating small battery backup (like maybe some of these https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XbuZbFq25gE) to offset the natural drain of the caps is key, in my opinion, as is incorporating a small solar panel to trickle charge back up what gets lost (an amorphous dashboard solar "battery maintainer" would do it, 500mA or so...)
a heated garage should offset losses and elimination of solar input...
but this is off topic to this thread about plasma ignition...sorry mods

[ahGM]

Hi,
What do you think of these videos?
What are the disadvantages?
Thank you .

Using capacitors instead of a car battery for 3 years and counting!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gzaLF5tFf88
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Replacing My Car Battery with Capacitors! 12V BoostPack Update
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z3x_kYq3mHM
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5x Super Capacitors Starts A Car 100F Allcingeye
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCfy3v4GKqM

[Aaron Murakami]

The Pulstars with the Aquapulser active didn't put out anything near a plasma spark. It acted like a CDI level spark that never quenched; it just buzzed. Pulstars are classed as Resistor spark plugs. From my understanding, you are correct in that the Pulstar is a resistor type spark plug with a built-in peaking cap. Again, a plasma discharge type system (specifically Aquapulser) DOES NOT work with the Pulstar plugs.

As for Firstorm, I had a unique opportunity to speak with Bob Krupa while he was still alive. He personally told me the story of his '96 T-Bird on the dyno. I got some drawings and other technical specs from him via email after the first call. The 2 often overlooked keys to his design were the beryllium allow used in the electrodes, and the billet ceramic insulation. I can attest to the poor quality of production ceramic insulation on the Brisk plugs. I have seen numerous attempts to replicate his design (including the link you posted in #1222). If someone made them, I too would buy them, even at a somewhat exorbitant price (please keep them under $30 each).

I have the X60 and an X80U, the X60 is what I installed on the Jeep. I put the X80U on the Hyundai.

I didn't know that Robert Krupa died. I corresponded with him by email a bit.

There are the clips of the Firestorm plug with the big plasma swirling around in one combustion chamber of a head while the other plug is normal. What he always left out of the facts is that the plug wasn't responsible for that light show, which is what he always claimed. He was using the Green Hornet spark amplifier, which is essentially the same as Aquapuler's. One time Krupa told me he was creating bowling ball size blasts from a plug, which was complete nonsense. Green Hornet is not in business anymore that I know of. Those are of course the antiquated way of creating the plasma rather than my method that allows you to use an off the shelf MSD/CDI.

Robert Krupa was introduced to the plasma ignition by Smokey Yunick way back - Yunick wrote articles regularly in Popular Mechanics in the 70's or 80's and he wrote about the plasma ignition, which is how Krupa and Yunick idled a V8 engine with a 100:1 air/fuel mixture. That was way before Green Hornet.

[mpgmike]

The Pulstars with the Aquapulser active didn't put out anything near a plasma spark. It acted like a CDI level spark that never quenched; it just buzzed. Pulstars are classed as Resistor spark plugs. From my understanding, you are correct in that the Pulstar is a resistor type spark plug with a built-in peaking cap. Again, a plasma discharge type system (specifically Aquapulser) DOES NOT work with the Pulstar plugs.

As for Firstorm, I had a unique opportunity to speak with Bob Krupa while he was still alive. He personally told me the story of his '96 T-Bird on the dyno. I got some drawings and other technical specs from him via email after the first call. The 2 often overlooked keys to his design were the beryllium allow used in the electrodes, and the billet ceramic insulation. I can attest to the poor quality of production ceramic insulation on the Brisk plugs. I have seen numerous attempts to replicate his design (including the link you posted in #1222). If someone made them, I too would buy them, even at a somewhat exorbitant price (please keep them under $30 each).

I have the X60 and an X80U, the X60 is what I installed on the Jeep. I put the X80U on the Hyundai.

[Aaron Murakami]

The Hyundai is gone. I don't have EMF issues with the Jeep, just too short plug life. I intend to build/assemble a weaker system than the Aquapulser for the Jeep. I believe (after reading the 122 pages of this thread) that my Jeep issue is simply that the Aquapulser puts out such a powerful plasma spark that the spark plug ceramics can't hold up. I live in the north east US where humidity is usually 70% or higher year round. That would add electrical conductivity to most anything.

I'm doing a different generator project where I disassembled the engine, removed the camshaft, drilled & tapped a hole in the plastic cam gear, added a ferrous screw for a trigger, then drilled & tapped the housing to mount a mag pick-up. With a positive cam signal, I KNOW when I'm on the compression stroke.

I have an X60 or whatever Aquapulser unit that I got from Arvind way back after I found out some crooks filed for the patent with my circuit in it.

Anyway, those units are really not all that strong - the capacitance is not that high.

Did you say you used Pulstar plugs with it? I don't think Pulstar makes non-resistor plugs. It's just a resistor plug with a built in peaking cap and that's about it. If you even got it to work, the stronger spark isn't just because of the Aquapulser unit, you're also getting the effect of the Pulstar cap discharge with it - I'd be surprised the plasma discharge even works with those plugs.

In graduated tube fuel rundown tests on a generator that Jetijs did way back on Energetic Forum, there was no difference from a normal plug. They go through all that effort to put in a peaking cap but with the high resistance plug, it's like an effort in futility. It's like having a Ferarri where the breaks are permanently applied 50% - there's no point.

Of all the spark plug tests I know of, the homemade Firestorm plugs held up the longest to the plasma, but you need to be able to weld and machine so it's not for everyone. If anyone can make those plugs, I'd like to buy some from them. All the Firestorm patents have been public domain for quite a while now so it's a free for all.

If you haven't seen this, check this out - was based on a lot of the plasma projects on Energetic Forum: http://www.hho4free.com/documents/sp...lasmaplugs.pdf

[mpgmike]

I am really a fan of your work.
wish you best of luck!
Happy to see like minded guys

Thank you very much!

Attached is a scope shot of the "kill wire" in the top red trace with a vacuum signal on the bottom yellow trace. This is with no load. I used a 5 HP Honda engine from a pressure washer for much of the development work. (Pressure washer died & the whole shebang was free. Engine still works.). If you used a comparator feeding into a CD4013 Flip Flop instead of a MCU, you may be able to rig something up for waste spark elimination. Don't know how you'd actually be able to alter timing with analog electronics. The PIC processor just makes the hardware much simpler for me.

[mpgmike]

The Hyundai is gone. I don't have EMF issues with the Jeep, just too short plug life. I intend to build/assemble a weaker system than the Aquapulser for the Jeep. I believe (after reading the 122 pages of this thread) that my Jeep issue is simply that the Aquapulser puts out such a powerful plasma spark that the spark plug ceramics can't hold up. I live in the north east US where humidity is usually 70% or higher year round. That would add electrical conductivity to most anything.

I'm doing a different generator project where I disassembled the engine, removed the camshaft, drilled & tapped a hole in the plastic cam gear, added a ferrous screw for a trigger, then drilled & tapped the housing to mount a mag pick-up. With a positive cam signal, I KNOW when I'm on the compression stroke.

[Aaron Murakami]

Mpgmike,
I am really a fan of your work.
If you have trouble with EMI interference, I suggest you could try 3 things:
1. Improve the engine grounding using heavy gauge copper cables and clean the connector terminals thoroughly and add silicon dielectric grease to prevent future corrosion, repeat same on battery terminals too
2. Add super low ESR capacitor bank in parallel to your battery(when you parallel more capacitors resistance reduces more and more), use super thick copper wires for this.
3. Look up ground strapping technique. I use bifilar winding of magnet wire, short it out at one end and ground both wires at the other end. Avoid doing this in plasma piggy back wires at all costs (in your case, aquapulsar to spark plug wires), bifilar winding cancels out emi pulses emanating from high tension wires.

wish you best of luck!
Happy to see like minded guys

I agree - you can do the big 3 upgrade: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tG7laKXLmdg

Also, if the capacitor is not discharging through the ignition cables, you can use suppression wires that are intended for cap discharge. Then the cap can just be discharged on separate low resistance wires that go to the top of each plug.

[firozmusthafa]

Mpgmike,
I am really a fan of your work.
If you have trouble with EMI interference, I suggest you could try 3 things:
1. Improve the engine grounding using heavy gauge copper cables and clean the connector terminals thoroughly and add silicon dielectric grease to prevent future corrosion, repeat same on battery terminals too
2. Add super low ESR capacitor bank in parallel to your battery(when you parallel more capacitors resistance reduces more and more), use super thick copper wires for this.
3. Look up ground strapping technique. I use bifilar winding of magnet wire, short it out at one end and ground both wires at the other end. Avoid doing this in plasma piggy back wires at all costs (in your case, aquapulsar to spark plug wires), bifilar winding cancels out emi pulses emanating from high tension wires.

wish you best of luck!
Happy to see like minded guys

[Aaron Murakami]

Also, I design electronic controls for a living. I've seen a few requests for a simple electronic controller for single cylinder gasoline engines that would allow elimination of waste spark & provide for timing advance/retard. I already designed a couple variations of that for a previous project. It is not proprietary IP, patented, or anything of the ilk. If there is interest, I could whip up something simple for R&D purposes for a nominal cost; like a unit that just eliminates WS and controls timing with the turn of a knob for around $70 US. It used the kill switch wire as a crank signal, and manifold vacuum to a pressure transducer to differentiate compression from exhaust strokes.

The more elaborate version I designed incorporated XY Tables, where X = RPM and Y = MAP Average (vacuum) for trimming timing according to load. It used a touch screen controller to monitor conditions & program. This one would have to go for around $250 to cover my costs.

Installation requires an automotive ignition coil (can't alter magneto timing), a 12 volt battery (to power the controller & coil), splicing into the kill switch wire, drilling a small hole into either the carburetor or intake manifold, JB Welding a small brass tube into the drilled hole, running a plastic hose between the brass port and the vacuum port on the controller, and of course mounting everything (may involve bracket fabrication). If there's any interest, let me know. If I can get at least 5 takers, it would bring costs down to where I can meet the $60 price and not cost myself money.

As for posting schematics, I could do that. It uses a PIC MCU, which I could post the code as well. Anybody interested?

I'm interested in seeing different ways to do it. I have no experience with pic chip programming

Instead of basing it on pressure, what about a counter - 1-2-1-2-1-2,etc. and it only triggers on every 1 or every 2.

[nuvisys]

hello mike. nice meeting you here!

[mpgmike]

I wish I had pictures of the simple version, but here are a few of the timing controller with the hand-held programmer. First pic is of the controller. Second pic is of the controller & coil mounted to the underside of the genset. Third pic is of the carburetor modification necessary to get a vacuum signal.

[mpgmike]

Also, I design electronic controls for a living. I've seen a few requests for a simple electronic controller for single cylinder gasoline engines that would allow elimination of waste spark & provide for timing advance/retard. I already designed a couple variations of that for a previous project. It is not proprietary IP, patented, or anything of the ilk. If there is interest, I could whip up something simple for R&D purposes for a nominal cost; like a unit that just eliminates WS and controls timing with the turn of a knob for around $70 US. It used the kill switch wire as a crank signal, and manifold vacuum to a pressure transducer to differentiate compression from exhaust strokes.

The more elaborate version I designed incorporated XY Tables, where X = RPM and Y = MAP Average (vacuum) for trimming timing according to load. It used a touch screen controller to monitor conditions & program. This one would have to go for around $250 to cover my costs.

Installation requires an automotive ignition coil (can't alter magneto timing), a 12 volt battery (to power the controller & coil), splicing into the kill switch wire, drilling a small hole into either the carburetor or intake manifold, JB Welding a small brass tube into the drilled hole, running a plastic hose between the brass port and the vacuum port on the controller, and of course mounting everything (may involve bracket fabrication). If there's any interest, let me know. If I can get at least 5 takers, it would bring costs down to where I can meet the $60 price and not cost myself money.

As for posting schematics, I could do that. It uses a PIC MCU, which I could post the code as well. Anybody interested?

[mpgmike]

Electricity went out early Monday afternoon (NE US storm) and stayed out for 75 hours. Since I couldn't work, I caught up on some reading. Started with Post #1 and read through to #1212. I learned about PDI in 2009 while preparing a 2008 Hyundai Sonata for the Progressive Automotive 100 MPGe X-Prize Fuel Economy Race (Liberty Motors entry #20). Aquapulser was one of the sponsors for the car. Since then I've spent many hours fighting Plasma on several vehicles. Honestly, my definition of PDI has been the Aquapulser system (in 3 variations) and the Pulstar Spark Plugs (through 3 generations). I have yet to build Aaron's system. I did purchase the package about 2 years ago and have read through it and watched the videos at least 5 times.

As for the Hyundai, after about 5 minutes of driving with the Aquapulser, the ECU would ramp into "tow-in mode" (that's beyond "limp-in mode"). The RFI was just too much for something in the system. Initially we were using the diode blocks with remote mounted coils & Accel solid core wires, but then switched to the modified COP design Aaron mentioned a few times in this thread. That worked much better, but alas, much better means I could get it to work for several hours before tow-mode. The Sonata sported the Powre Ringz, Powre Lynz (my invention), as well as the Gadgetman Groove, Dutchman HAFC, and a sundry of other trinkets. We achieved an unofficial 83 MPG at the Michigan International Speedway and an official 44.7 MPG Combined City & Highway from Roush Labs (Livonia, MI). Neither earned us the coveted 100 MPG required to run the official race June 10, 2010. (Considering the posted EPA Combined number was 26, even 44.7 isn't bad!)

I had Aquapulser on our 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee, 4.0. That would run great... until the first spark plug no longer could fire. I kept swapping more and more expensive spark plugs, culminating with the Brisk aircraft ($18+ each) plugs. The issue with the Brisk wasn't electrode degradation, it was poor ceramic insulator quality. The spark was leaking to ground through the insulation causing misfires. The Jeep now has the current generation Pulstar Natural Gas plugs (not listed on their web site, you must call to order them), which pack a stronger punch than their standard plugs. Oh, I've been running the Grannatelli wires on it all along.

I don't have pictures, but I did an experiment where I tested AC Delco resistor, NGK non-resistor, and Pulstar (1st generation) plugs with and without the Aquapulser PDI. Resistor plug normal wasn't sparking bright enough to see in the day light. Just a faint clicking noise. With Aquapulser turned on, it put out a fairly decent spark (CDI type spark). NGK normal was stronger than AC plug with no PDI, but turned into the preverbal camera flash with PDI. The Pulstar normal flashed brighter than the AC Delco with or without PDI, but turned into a constant buzz with PDI. I could never get an engine to run worth a crap with Pulstars & Aquapulser combined; the spark never shut off!! (That was one of the reasons I did that test.)

After reading through this most informative thread, I believe the Aquapulser is too good; puts out way too much power for the street. I think I'm going to revisit the PDI concept, this time Aaron's way. Maybe I can get a set of plugs to last a year or so. Many thanks to the fabulous contributors to this thread that helped me through another day of school.

[Aaron Murakami]

I never used plasma on the car yet, just the spark prolonger
Car is light weight city type car with 800cc 3 cylinder kettering ignition F8B engine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_800

But what I noticed when I experimented with bike is that when I hooked up spark prolonger on my bike without plasma, exhaust smell was very much similar to with plasma (very less irritating to eyes and nose)
I did try hooking up spark prolonger and plasma in series on my bike and did not notice any more differences.

Which means it is the next best thing to plasma if not closer without the additional load put on alternator by the plasma inverter.

I may try putting a small inverter on the car to try and replicate plasma on it, but not anytime soon. It requires a lot of effort compared to bike.

1 thing I noticed is that bigger the capacitor on plasma that much better the efficiency becomes but at the expense of spark plug life.

Interesting, it's a Kei Car - Suzuki Alto.

If you have a MSD or CDI module to hook to the car, it should be very simple to hookup - would be identical to how I did it on my Datsun pickup truck.