Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

[Outboardtech]

I don't think waste spark is as difficult to convert to plasma as people think, since the ECU is basically doing what the MSD CDI box was invented to do in the days of distributor cap/rotor anyways. (The cam and crank position sensors are what give ECUs information for spark, and they're probably much more accurate and reliable and less prone to drift out of "tune".)
If the plasma "event" occurs because of the diode between the primary +ve and secondary +ve, and your ignition system has multiple primaries and secondaries, then you'll need multiple diodes placed appropriately (4 in your case, 3 for a v6 and 2 for a 4cyl).
Further, you could need multiple capacitors (or consider voltage multipliers) across those multiple primaries....and for peaking capacitors, you might be able to place them across each pair of secondaries rather than on each plug.

Heysoundude THANK YOU for the piece of information I needed normally I spend hours getting to know every nook and cranny of my cars once I get them. my 1st car was a 66 Impala and though I knew Chevy blocks from working on mercury stern drives as well as Volvo Penta since they both used Chevys, I did not think twice once my dad had 2 brand new 454's come back to his dealership as factory duds, and he chose to buy them DIRT CHEAP from the factory instead of sending them and rebuild them with his apprentice doing the work lol and sell them again. I begged and bartered and got him to agree to help me rebuild one for my Impala, and the original 327 would be rebuilt and put back once we were done. but till then id be able to have a 454 to brag a bit while I was in school but warned me 1 speeding ticket the car is His again, well while rebuilding the 454 i got caught speeding I did not think our agreement was until I put the 454 in but he said sorry you broke your trust with me, and I was put back on my 125 dual-purpose motorcycle and having to pack my dates, and if it rained cancel them again or use my dads pick up and to me at the time it was embarrassing. Then my 2nd car was a 77 Toyota Corona 2 door given to me by my neighbour when i returned from the Marines. and i noticed the grill and headlights were UGULY but the body had lines and curves i liked so i studied that cars manuals till I knew everything there was to know about a 20 and 22R motor as well as the cars Toyota used them in for parts reference and started to find like a Chevy the old Toyotas with automatic transmissions had 4.11 gears in the station wagon Corona models and the head from a 20R will mate with an 80-83 22R. and so swapped the 20R from my car to the 22R with my own modifications for performance, took my rear end out and installed a station wagon rear end in and converted my Corona to a standard with a Centerforce clutch. My next car was a 86 Mustang now I was back where I started sort of, I started learning that car and I learned a lot, but the big difference between my old 66 Impala and the Mustang was my uncle gave me a rock crusher gear box, the fox body mustangs borg warner T5 could barely handle a stock Mustang motor without 3rd gear falling out of the transmission. so after crushing the original transmission and blowing up a $1300 cobra model, I said im selling it it's not worth a down payment on a used car that would probably be more comfortable for my back anyway. and I got my Tbird but not even 1.5 years passed when I got my head injury. I stopped dreaming of building up the Tbird. before I got hurt I was studying the trans being it was the weak point of my Mustang when I had hurt my head I did not look at the ignition if it was a wasted spark system or not but you saved me the headache of having to buy 2 MSD boxes as far as I remember seeing in TCCOA they were running 2 MSD boxes for nothing really and now im retired and bored as hell its time to play again

[Aaron Murakami]

Just for fun - my high school car 1989-1990.

1978 Toyota Carina GT - 2TGEU engine 1.6 liter 5 speed. Had the best sounding exhaust on Yokota AFB (in my opinion lol) - HKS - was for a Toyota Soarer (another car never brought to the states) but matched perfectly. Right hand drive, you can see the fender mirrors common in Japan - sure miss that car.

Mostly stock, but sure had a lot of fun adventures in it!

[heysoundude]

Heysoundude THANK YOU for the piece of information I needed normally I spend hours getting to know every nook and cranny of my cars once I get them. my 1st car was a 66 Impala and though I knew Chevy blocks from working on mercury stern drives as well as Volvo Penta since they both used Chevys, I did not think twice once my dad had 2 brand new 454's come back to his dealership as factory duds, and he chose to buy them DIRT CHEAP from the factory instead of sending them and rebuild them with his apprentice doing the work lol and sell them again. I begged and bartered and got him to agree to help me rebuild one for my Impala, and the original 327 would be rebuilt and put back once we were done. but till then id be able to have a 454 to brag a bit while I was in school but warned me 1 speeding ticket the car is His again, well while rebuilding the 454 i got caught speeding I did not think our agreement was until I put the 454 in but he said sorry you broke your trust with me, and I was put back on my 125 dual-purpose motorcycle and having to pack my dates, and if it rained cancel them again or use my dads pick up and to me at the time it was embarrassing. Then my 2nd car was a 77 Toyota Corona 2 door given to me by my neighbour when i returned from the Marines. and i noticed the grill and headlights were UGULY but the body had lines and curves i liked so i studied that cars manuals till I knew everything there was to know about a 20 and 22R motor as well as the cars Toyota used them in for parts reference and started to find like a Chevy the old Toyotas with automatic transmissions had 4.11 gears in the station wagon Corona models and the head from a 20R will mate with an 80-83 22R. and so swapped the 20R from my car to the 22R with my own modifications for performance, took my rear end out and installed a station wagon rear end in and converted my Corona to a standard with a Centerforce clutch. My next car was a 86 Mustang now I was back where I started sort of, I started learning that car and I learned a lot, but the big difference between my old 66 Impala and the Mustang was my uncle gave me a rock crusher gear box, the fox body mustangs borg warner T5 could barely handle a stock Mustang motor without 3rd gear falling out of the transmission. so after crushing the original transmission and blowing up a $1300 cobra model, I said im selling it it's not worth a down payment on a used car that would probably be more comfortable for my back anyway. and I got my Tbird but not even 1.5 years passed when I got my head injury. I stopped dreaming of building up the Tbird. before I got hurt I was studying the trans being it was the weak point of my Mustang when I had hurt my head I did not look at the ignition if it was a wasted spark system or not but you saved me the headache of having to buy 2 MSD boxes as far as I remember seeing in TCCOA they were running 2 MSD boxes for nothing really and now im retired and bored as hell its time to play again

Well, don't thank me yet - I may be wrong; I haven't tested it yet. But it makes sense to me that in a waste spark ignition system with pairs of secondaries, each pair must have a primary, and likely a place to put the diode. Capacitance on the switched 12V supply to primaries shouldn't be too tough to implement, nor should peaking capacitors...diode placement could prove to be key, however, with the big risk being to ECU.
Another consideration here is that you also have to modify the fuel delivery/lambda systems, because with the o2 sensors seeing an increased amount of oxygen in the exhaust, the computer will start to deliver more fuel to correct the perceived lean condition. MAP/MAF and o2 corrective circuitry to prevent increased fuel consumption (plasma ignition definitely burns the fuel better) is likely necessary in cars with an ECU, or all the effort on the ignition end is for naught.

[rokan]

1996 Toyota Tacoma

Well, I have a problem? I got my diodes and mounted them in a nice little black box and did all my connections. When I start it up it barely runs, sputters and pops. So I disconnected everything and did a test with one plug and one diode. The original direction I connected everything I get good spark and when I reverse the diode I get no spark. So why does it barely run when I have it connected the direction of spark?? Again, this is a 1996 Toyota Tacoma 2.4L 4 cylinder engine. Something is strange about how Toyota ignition works???

[Aaron Murakami]

Well, I have a problem? I got my diodes and mounted them in a nice little black box and did all my connections. When I start it up it barely runs, sputters and pops. So I disconnected everything and did a test with one plug and one diode. The original direction I connected everything I get good spark and when I reverse the diode I get no spark. So why does it barely run when I have it connected the direction of spark?? Again, this is a 1996 Toyota Tacoma 2.4L 4 cylinder engine. Something is strange about how Toyota ignition works???

Shouldn't be anything weird about the Toyota ignition.

If the CDI/MSD is hooked up properly and it runs without the diodes, should be fine.

You said your ignition coil was upgraded to a performance coil intended for cap discharge as far as I can recall.

The positive of the ignition coil is in contact with the + of the capacitor in the MSD with a switch in between like SCR and is switched on to dump the cap when the MSD is triggered.

So having a diode from that positive to the top of a spark plug that is grounded allows the cap to discharge over the gap whenever the MSD is triggered since that is the lowest resistance path to ground after the spark jumps the gap to make it conductive.

Do you get a good spark with the diode when the cathode or anode is connected to the positive of the ignition coil? If anode, the HV from your ignition coil is positive and if cathode, then the HV from ignition coil is negative.

Do you have non-resistor plugs in your engine?

[rokan]

P.S. It creates an awesome spark but the engine won't run without major misfiring!!??

[rokan]

Yes non-resistor

[rokan]

It acts the same as when I was trying the multiple capacitor setup on each wire, it just doesn't run with either of these things connected to the wires???
It acts like it is cross-firing when anything is connected to the center post of the plug such as the capacitors that I first tried and now the diodes??

[Aaron Murakami]

P.S. It creates an awesome spark but the engine won't run without major misfiring!!??

This is probably not the issue but I have to ask anyway. Do you have the correct cable from the distributor cap going to the correct plug? It's easy to get them out of order and that will definitely cause misfiring.

When you say it creates an awesome spark, do you mean without the diodes running in simple MSD mode? And when it does, it still doesn't run properly?

What does this mean? "multiple capacitor setup on each wire"

It is possible that the wires you have coming out of the boots to connect the ignition coil + to is firing over to the head. In my first experiment with the Datsun, I had the wires going underneath the boots and they weren't insulated well so the HV spark went from under the boot right over to the head bypassing the plug completely every few firings.

[rokan]

Yes, the firing order is correct because if I disconnect the diodes it runs perfectly. Awesome spark is when I have one wire connected outside the engine with a plug in it and grounded to the engine and I connect it with the diode it creates a STRONG spark BUT the engine still runs terribly until I disconnect the diode even though it is only running on 3 cylinders. It will run on 3 cylinders with out the diode connected to the plug but when I connect a diode it won't run long on its own before it completely dies. In simple MSD mode the spark is weak. I tried the 3 caps in series and 4 sets of those in parallel, that works great on my 1995 Honda Accord 2.2L VTEC but again, on the Toyota it barely runs?? I have a positive connection to the plug with no spark jumping away to ground.

Somehow that extra HV spark is feeding back somewhere it is not supposed to be??

Ok, new test! STRANGE PHENOMENON!!
I connected my modified spark plug wire to #1 cylinder, started right up and ran good with nothing connected to it
BUT then all I connected to it was my jumper wire which would go to the diode and the whole engine started missing and died! And the other end was connected to the air! To nothing! And it just missed and chugged until it quit running??? The red jumper wire is rated at 6KV

[rokan]

I just did another test.
I made one plug wire that was non-resistor and it didn't like that!
WHY???

[Aaron Murakami]

Yes, the firing order is correct because if I disconnect the diodes it runs perfectly. Awesome spark is when I have one wire connected outside the engine with a plug in it and grounded to the engine and I connect it with the diode it creates a STRONG spark BUT the engine still runs terribly until I disconnect the diode even though it is only running on 3 cylinders. It will run on 3 cylinders with out the diode connected to the plug but when I connect a diode it won't run long on its own before it completely dies. In simple MSD mode the spark is weak. I tried the 3 caps in series and 4 sets of those in parallel, that works great on my 1995 Honda Accord 2.2L VTEC but again, on the Toyota it barely runs?? I have a positive connection to the plug with no spark jumping away to ground.

Somehow that extra HV spark is feeding back somewhere it is not supposed to be??

Ok, new test! STRANGE PHENOMENON!!
I connected my modified spark plug wire to #1 cylinder, started right up and ran good with nothing connected to it
BUT then all I connected to it was my jumper wire which would go to the diode and the whole engine started missing and died! And the other end was connected to the air! To nothing! And it just missed and chugged until it quit running??? The red jumper wire is rated at 6KV

When you say STRONG spark with the diode, is it a strong spark or do you actually get the plasma discharge? It is definitely distinctly different than a spark and is not just a stronger spark. It should look like the plasma demo on my Datsun video.

The caps you mention in series/parallel, is that for peaking cap purposes? Caps are in parallel with the spark gap? If that works on your Honda but not on Toyota, something is not right because it should work the same - if both ignition coil outputs are comparable.

You say the MSD mode spark is weak - but is it stronger than the spark without the MSD at all - before you did any mods to the ignition?

"Ok, new test! STRANGE PHENOMENON!!
I connected my modified spark plug wire to #1 cylinder, started right up and ran good with nothing connected to it
BUT then all I connected to it was my jumper wire which would go to the diode and the whole engine started missing and died! And the other end was connected to the air! To nothing! And it just missed and chugged until it quit running??? The red jumper wire is rated at 6KV"

That's interesting - it is possible the hv is going to the top of the plug and some hv id being lost in that jump wire in invisible corona right to the air - it's possible, but not sure how probable that explanation is. It wouldn't take much to diminish the energy from the spark enough to cause the engine to miss. But if you only did that to one wire and the other 3 plug cables are connected and it died, that is worse than just removing 1 cable from a plug, which would let it run rough on 3 plugs, but still run.

[Richard]

I just did another test.
I made one plug wire that was non-resistor and it didn't like that!
WHY???

Sounds like arcing inside the distributor cap to me, the higher the voltage the worse it gets. Look inside the distributor cap for burned arcing traces. Maybe try a new distributor cap and wash it out with alcohol first.

Richard Gieser

[rokan]

Sounds like arcing inside the distributor cap to me, the higher the voltage the worse it gets. Look inside the distributor cap for burned arcing traces. Maybe try a new distributor cap and wash it out with alcohol first.

Richard Gieser

But why would it run perfectly ok with 5k resistance but when I remove the resistance it goes wacky??
I looked for traces in the cap and didn't see any but I will look again just to make sure.

[Richard]

But why would it run perfectly ok with 5k resistance but when I remove the resistance it goes wacky??
I looked for traces in the cap and didn't see any but I will look again just to make sure.

Any resistance in the circuit will drop voltage across that resistance thereby leaving less voltage to arc in the distributor cap. We want the highest voltage possible to reach the spark plug but not high enough to jump through the ignition wires to the valve covers, etc. or to arc in the dist cap. So ignition wires with resistance will eat up some of your voltage leaving less for the plug an dist cap.