Plasma Ignition | Plasma Jet Ignition

[Aaron Murakami]

Hi Aaron,

I am using motorcycle series TM plug which measures just about 0.2 ohm in my fluke multimeter

Thanks,
Firoz

Thanks Firoz,

Have you experimented with the two automobile types? Original Type or Star Series Type

[firozmusthafa]

Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to experiment with other types. But I might try it out in future.

What I noticed is champion plug with ground electrode removed and removable resistor lasts more than TM plugs, which is not only cheaper and easier to obtain but also gives more gap than TM plug.

Champion plugs are easier to modify as well. So I am looking at ways to build firestorm with champion plugs. Only thing preventing me is the skill set / resources required to do fine welding.
Plasma welders are very rare in my area.

[Aaron Murakami]

Unfortunately I haven't had a chance to experiment with other types. But I might try it out in future.

What I noticed is champion plug with ground electrode removed and removable resistor lasts more than TM plugs, which is not only cheaper and easier to obtain but also gives more gap than TM plug.

Champion plugs are easier to modify as well. So I am looking at ways to build firestorm with champion plugs. Only thing preventing me is the skill set / resources required to do fine welding.
Plasma welders are very rare in my area.

Firoz, here is how to build the Firestorm plug - this doc was put together by Ash from Panacea in Australia years ago based on a lot of collaboration that came through my Energeticforum.com:
http://emediapress.com/wp-content/up...lasmaplugs.pdf

Do you think the champion plug with the removed strap and resistor would work well in an turbocharged automobile engine? Early on, quite a few people were doing the same mod. I never did, I just bought off the shelf non-resistor NGK plugs mostly.

[firozmusthafa]

I have no doubt about it. If champion plug used to modify is made for turbo charged application, it would surely hold up.
I noticed champion plugs are less quality than ngk which is why it allows us to do these mods.
Even then champion quality is acceptable for our use.

Just have to be careful before buying a champion, not all their plugs have removable resistors inside it. Some of them are fused ceramic resistors which is impossible to modify. If you are lucky, you can get resistor less version which saves all the trouble.
There are different models built with same dimensions.

If lean burn is the target, then high ignition voltage is required especially to fire them under high boost. This will become more obvious when trying to start engine when cold in high compression cylinder head.
Anything that vaporizes fuel better significantly increases lean burn limit as per my experiments and astronomically amplifies plasma effects (this is beyond what I was able to imagine prior to my experimental findings)

Not that plasma won't grow in high pressure, it needs high voltage first to initiate the low resistance ionized arc for the plasma burst to propagate, I tested this theory by lowering ignition primary voltage by 10volts and understood that plasma too requires higher voltage to initiate under high pressure.

[fresh1]

Which cheap CDI has best longevity?

Hey guys,
I'm the greenhorn here and haven't got through reading all the previous
pages of this thread yet, (only got to pg36 so far) so my apologies in
advance if this has been discussed earlier.

Just wondering if anyone has had issues with the MSD StreetFire CDI 5520
after 2+years of daily use?
I am considering buying either a MSD 5520 or a Accel 61212 SuperBox CDI,
but some of the reviews on Amazon for the 5520 have me concerned.
For a noob like me, the Accel looks more appealing for what I learned about
it and I haven't found negative reviews about it so far.
Anyone feel free to give advice about any pros/cons with those 2.
The engine to be used with it is a 1989 Chevy 350 with stock ignition coil.

Any suggestions would be appreciated!

Thx

[heysoundude]

which is the more modern design? how do they differ? Can you determine what size the capacitor in the Accel box is?
while Aaron's version is proven with the MSD box, I wonder if that may have been surpassed by more modern technology.

[Aaron Murakami]

which is the more modern design? how do they differ? Can you determine what size the capacitor in the Accel box is?
while Aaron's version is proven with the MSD box, I wonder if that may have been surpassed by more modern technology.

Holley pretty much owns all those companies I believe...last 10 years seems they bought them all up.

Street Fire is MSD's budget brand. It's 89mJ - a bit on the weaker size but in a way preferrable for longer lasting plugs, which isn't ultra long compared to non plasma use. I've never not been able to get the Street Fire module to work and all the ones I've used are still working fine. Have never fried one yet.

I haven't read the reviews on Amazon for the Street Fire so not sure what issues people could have. For the plasma purpose, it works perfect I think.

Accel and the other brands are good quality too, I haven't tried them but no reason they don't work. I've never had a need to use any other.

All their circuits will be fairly similar - the trigger turns on an SCR to complete circuit from the ground of the cap to the ground of the ignition coil primary. They rarely do anything different from that.

Someone did fry a Street Fire unit somehow and sent it to me to look at. I have no idea what went wrong with it, but I do kind of recall that the cap used inside was a WIMA cap, which is one of the very best you can have for high speed pulse applications so that was a very good sign.

The only modules I had go bad was a used DIS-2 MSD module for distributor-less ignition systems. I had to use 2 of them together to make it work on the 1998 Subaru Legacy GT with a EJ-25 engine. It's a wasted spark ignition system. One unit was new and one was used - not sure what happened, but it was the first time ever that plasma ignition was put on a car where two sides of the coil pack are normally opposite polarity so makes it nearly impossible so I made all polarities the same by using two coil packs in series. Then I needed two of those DIS-2 units - wasn't happy about those as they cost nearly $700 each brand new - something like that.

[heysoundude]

came across this article with some interesting notes about capacitance and current that have clarified things for me:
https://mgaguru.com/mgtech/ignition/...rn_article.pdf

[firozmusthafa]

Recently I overhauled Suzuki Maruti F8B 800cc 3 cylinder engine running on contact points distributor ignition system. Along with overhaul, I did some of changes including increasing compression ratio from 8.8 to 10.4 by shaving engine head by 1.26mm, power lynz https://youtu.be/vT7kdwbEG8s
, power ringz on the back of intake valves, and later on spark duration enhancer made exactly as per the patent and used non resistor plugs along with it.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US3939814A/en

This improved engine response really so much and solved all vibration issues inherent with F8B engine.
There is noticeable power difference about 30 percent difference in acceleration time in all engine rpms. Engine cranks to life in half a turn and is smooth at all rpm

Due to increased torque, to improve fuel consumption and to save tires from wearing prematurely I tried reducing carburetor secondary pilot jet from 92.5 to 90 and secondary main jet from 175 to 150
No one could identify difference in power compared to stock after reducing the carburetor jets. In fact, even with reduced fuel, engine is eager to accelerate at all rpms. Without spark duration enhancer, engine struggled to climb speed after 80kmph, now after this mod, there is no problem for the engine to club speed upto 100kmph (we don't drive that fast, keeps speeds less that 70kmph since the car is 25 years old)

Fuel economy prior to overhaul was 9 to 12kmpl prior to modification. Right now its in the range of 20 to 30kmpl depending on driving condition.

[Aaron Murakami]

Recently I overhauled Suzuki Maruti F8B 800cc 3 cylinder engine running on contact points distributor ignition system. Along with overhaul, I did some of changes including increasing compression ratio from 8.8 to 10.4 by shaving engine head by 1.26mm, power lynz https://youtu.be/vT7kdwbEG8s
, power ringz on the back of intake valves, and later on spark duration enhancer made exactly as per the patent and used non resistor plugs along with it.
https://patents.google.com/patent/US3939814A/en

This improved engine response really so much and solved all vibration issues inherent with F8B engine.
There is noticeable power difference about 30 percent difference in acceleration time in all engine rpms. Engine cranks to life in half a turn and is smooth at all rpm

Due to increased torque, to improve fuel consumption and to save tires from wearing prematurely I tried reducing carburetor secondary pilot jet from 92.5 to 90 and secondary main jet from 175 to 150
No one could identify difference in power compared to stock after reducing the carburetor jets. In fact, even with reduced fuel, engine is eager to accelerate at all rpms. Without spark duration enhancer, engine struggled to climb speed after 80kmph, now after this mod, there is no problem for the engine to club speed upto 100kmph (we don't drive that fast, keeps speeds less that 70kmph since the car is 25 years old)

Fuel economy prior to overhaul was 9 to 12kmpl prior to modification. Right now its in the range of 20 to 30kmpl depending on driving condition.

Peter Lindemann told me about Bergstressor's spark prolonger quite a while back and I built one but have very little experiments with it to mention. Looking forward to your progress. I never used it together with the plasma in any experiments that I can recall. Are you using the plasma ignition still when you removed the spark duration enhancer?

Just realized you are using this on a car - what kind? That is quite an increase over double!

[heysoundude]

that's one massive inductor. the spark prolonger.

[firozmusthafa]

I never used plasma on the car yet, just the spark prolonger
Car is light weight city type car with 800cc 3 cylinder kettering ignition F8B engine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_800

But what I noticed when I experimented with bike is that when I hooked up spark prolonger on my bike without plasma, exhaust smell was very much similar to with plasma (very less irritating to eyes and nose)
I did try hooking up spark prolonger and plasma in series on my bike and did not notice any more differences.

Which means it is the next best thing to plasma if not closer without the additional load put on alternator by the plasma inverter.

I may try putting a small inverter on the car to try and replicate plasma on it, but not anytime soon. It requires a lot of effort compared to bike.

1 thing I noticed is that bigger the capacitor on plasma that much better the efficiency becomes but at the expense of spark plug life.

[Aaron Murakami]

I never used plasma on the car yet, just the spark prolonger
Car is light weight city type car with 800cc 3 cylinder kettering ignition F8B engine.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maruti_800

But what I noticed when I experimented with bike is that when I hooked up spark prolonger on my bike without plasma, exhaust smell was very much similar to with plasma (very less irritating to eyes and nose)
I did try hooking up spark prolonger and plasma in series on my bike and did not notice any more differences.

Which means it is the next best thing to plasma if not closer without the additional load put on alternator by the plasma inverter.

I may try putting a small inverter on the car to try and replicate plasma on it, but not anytime soon. It requires a lot of effort compared to bike.

1 thing I noticed is that bigger the capacitor on plasma that much better the efficiency becomes but at the expense of spark plug life.

Interesting, it's a Kei Car - Suzuki Alto.

If you have a MSD or CDI module to hook to the car, it should be very simple to hookup - would be identical to how I did it on my Datsun pickup truck.

[mpgmike]

Electricity went out early Monday afternoon (NE US storm) and stayed out for 75 hours. Since I couldn't work, I caught up on some reading. Started with Post #1 and read through to #1212. I learned about PDI in 2009 while preparing a 2008 Hyundai Sonata for the Progressive Automotive 100 MPGe X-Prize Fuel Economy Race (Liberty Motors entry #20). Aquapulser was one of the sponsors for the car. Since then I've spent many hours fighting Plasma on several vehicles. Honestly, my definition of PDI has been the Aquapulser system (in 3 variations) and the Pulstar Spark Plugs (through 3 generations). I have yet to build Aaron's system. I did purchase the package about 2 years ago and have read through it and watched the videos at least 5 times.

As for the Hyundai, after about 5 minutes of driving with the Aquapulser, the ECU would ramp into "tow-in mode" (that's beyond "limp-in mode"). The RFI was just too much for something in the system. Initially we were using the diode blocks with remote mounted coils & Accel solid core wires, but then switched to the modified COP design Aaron mentioned a few times in this thread. That worked much better, but alas, much better means I could get it to work for several hours before tow-mode. The Sonata sported the Powre Ringz, Powre Lynz (my invention), as well as the Gadgetman Groove, Dutchman HAFC, and a sundry of other trinkets. We achieved an unofficial 83 MPG at the Michigan International Speedway and an official 44.7 MPG Combined City & Highway from Roush Labs (Livonia, MI). Neither earned us the coveted 100 MPG required to run the official race June 10, 2010. (Considering the posted EPA Combined number was 26, even 44.7 isn't bad!)

I had Aquapulser on our 1995 Jeep Grand Cherokee, 4.0. That would run great... until the first spark plug no longer could fire. I kept swapping more and more expensive spark plugs, culminating with the Brisk aircraft ($18+ each) plugs. The issue with the Brisk wasn't electrode degradation, it was poor ceramic insulator quality. The spark was leaking to ground through the insulation causing misfires. The Jeep now has the current generation Pulstar Natural Gas plugs (not listed on their web site, you must call to order them), which pack a stronger punch than their standard plugs. Oh, I've been running the Grannatelli wires on it all along.

I don't have pictures, but I did an experiment where I tested AC Delco resistor, NGK non-resistor, and Pulstar (1st generation) plugs with and without the Aquapulser PDI. Resistor plug normal wasn't sparking bright enough to see in the day light. Just a faint clicking noise. With Aquapulser turned on, it put out a fairly decent spark (CDI type spark). NGK normal was stronger than AC plug with no PDI, but turned into the preverbal camera flash with PDI. The Pulstar normal flashed brighter than the AC Delco with or without PDI, but turned into a constant buzz with PDI. I could never get an engine to run worth a crap with Pulstars & Aquapulser combined; the spark never shut off!! (That was one of the reasons I did that test.)

After reading through this most informative thread, I believe the Aquapulser is too good; puts out way too much power for the street. I think I'm going to revisit the PDI concept, this time Aaron's way. Maybe I can get a set of plugs to last a year or so. Many thanks to the fabulous contributors to this thread that helped me through another day of school.

[mpgmike]

Also, I design electronic controls for a living. I've seen a few requests for a simple electronic controller for single cylinder gasoline engines that would allow elimination of waste spark & provide for timing advance/retard. I already designed a couple variations of that for a previous project. It is not proprietary IP, patented, or anything of the ilk. If there is interest, I could whip up something simple for R&D purposes for a nominal cost; like a unit that just eliminates WS and controls timing with the turn of a knob for around $70 US. It used the kill switch wire as a crank signal, and manifold vacuum to a pressure transducer to differentiate compression from exhaust strokes.

The more elaborate version I designed incorporated XY Tables, where X = RPM and Y = MAP Average (vacuum) for trimming timing according to load. It used a touch screen controller to monitor conditions & program. This one would have to go for around $250 to cover my costs.

Installation requires an automotive ignition coil (can't alter magneto timing), a 12 volt battery (to power the controller & coil), splicing into the kill switch wire, drilling a small hole into either the carburetor or intake manifold, JB Welding a small brass tube into the drilled hole, running a plastic hose between the brass port and the vacuum port on the controller, and of course mounting everything (may involve bracket fabrication). If there's any interest, let me know. If I can get at least 5 takers, it would bring costs down to where I can meet the $60 price and not cost myself money.

As for posting schematics, I could do that. It uses a PIC MCU, which I could post the code as well. Anybody interested?