Zero Force Motor Replication Project

[ZPDM]

Jeez Patrick,

Talk about throwing down the gauntlet, But seriously, that's a nice Christmas present, I won't ask for a diagram (though I won' refuse it either) but you maybe can mention if I am wrong on the concept here. You are taking the spike aka "spiky" sending it to a small cap and second coil in parallel and taking the spike off the collapsing second coil and sending it to the run battery?? I don't know, whatever it is it sounds pretty sneaky to me. BTW I like that "And Gate" name very catchy. Happy Holidays to you and yours. -Paul

[min2oly]

Here's a quick run with the coils using "The AND Gate" reed switch :-)

1000rpm - micro watts
1/2 x 1/4 x 1 inch X four neos @ 4V
23 awg
I made the coils using 8wires in parallel so I could experiment with different wire resistance vs voltage vs switching etc...

First coil is taking the power from the battery then sending spiky to the second coil/Cap to make them ring. :-)
KR - Patrick

[Yaro1776]

Another thing one can see in your data, if kinetic energy is equal to 1/2mV2, in widening the pulse length power consumption increased less than 2 fold while kinetic energy increased more than four fold, so the wide pulse length clearly seems more efficient and perhaps more than twice so.

Hello Paul,

Thanks for taking the time to comment on the ZFM Proto tests, however some clarification is required on the relationship between Kinetic Energy and Power for those out there in forum land that may be unclear on the differences. Kinetic Energy (joules) is the potential to do work due to a bodies motion, and once a body (in this case a rotor) is up to speed the Kinetic Energy remains a constant and will stay that way if there are no frictional and windage losses to slow the rotor down. Power is needed to get the rotor up to speed and create the Kinetic Energy and in an ideal world without losses the rotor will spin a very long time without any additional power input.

Power is defined as the time rate of doing work (watts or joule/sec), so in this instance the torque of the motor times its angular velocity defines the power produced. The torque is provided by the coils' magnetic push-pull on the rotor Neo's. By increasing the voltage, the amperage in the coils is multiplied and the torque (push-pull)value will increase - more power produced and consumed with more rpm. The same applies to the firing duration. All of this can be observed in the test data.

So the power consumed can be reasonably described by Operating Voltage x Amperage. The power produced can be reasonably described by the magnitude of the push - pull force x RPM. In this instance the values are relatively linear. At a later stage in this testing the Power produced will be measured.

Enough of the physics for today. The Neo's were mounted on the iron core this morning and the adhesive is curing. The Loctite AA 332 adhesive is very nasty stuff - the odor is a bit overpowering and requires a lot of ventilation. The rotor was placed in a remote corner by an open window to cure slowly and remove the odor. Next is the acid test - meaning assembly into the ZFM Proto.

Happy Holidays,
Yaro

[James McDonald]

Hi Yaro,
Want another mystery, why haven't you fried all your transistors? I'm not being a wise guy, I have no idea and I have also never built a large powered SSG, but you were drawing 9 watts through two trannys so 4.5 watts per tranny and the spike wasn't shunted to any load or neon bulb etc. Again I'm not expert here so maybe someone who is will chime in, but I would think 3055's would not be at all expected to survive that.

Hi ZPDM --

The pairs of transistors I used in the circuit are able to handle up to 200 watts at 30 Amps pulsed. These are only available from the United Kingdom.
I paid and extra $20.00 shipping fee to get them because they handle 50 more watts then the ones John Bedini used. The biggest issue here is keeping them
cool enough to keep running for a period of time. There have thermal pads under each transistor and they were glued down with thermal conductive glue to
an aluminum plate. Theses transistors are normally used in Audio amplifiers and can drive low resistance 4 ohm speakers. Unlike the SSG coil which is a
litzed type coil which makes a capacitor for stored voltage which would have a big kick back onto the transistors when the load resistance changes. This is why
the SSG has protection Neons to keep them from getting damage from the kick back spike. Each transistor pair is actually handling 90 watts of power at the
36 volt input power voltage. Since the transistors are only switched On for a short period of time these are only running at 50% of the specification listed in
the data sheet. If you were to build the same circuit using 2N3055 transistors you need to pair up each 2N3055 (NPN) transistor with a MJ2955 (PNP) transistor.
Each of these transistors would have to be the TO-3 or now TO-204AA package. But this paired combination will only handle 115 watts so I would not run these
at the 36 volt input voltage. You would also need to heat sink them good just to reach the 115 watt capability listed on the data sheet. Without a heatsink you
would be lucky to reach half the specification of wattage capability without burning them up. There are two limitations on the power handling ability of a transistor
Average junction temperature and Second breakdown voltage. Safe operating area curves indicate IC − VCE limits of the transistor that must be observed for reliable operation; i.e., the transistor must not be subjected to greater dissipation than the curves indicated on the data sheet.

-- James

[ZPDM]

Holiday Greetings to all,

The Aluminum rotor mod was completed first and the upgraded Neo's (3/4"Dx 3/8"T N52) installed. After the assembly of the rotor Neo's the unit was installed in the motor assembly. The greater strength Neo's markedly improved the speed performance of the ZFM proto at all operating dc voltages (12, 24 and 36voltages). However, the torque on the motor with this rotor remains low... There is no high speed O-scope available to inspect the voltages to the coils in detail.

Results
Timing Arc about 40 -45 degrees
1. 12v - 485rpm - 0.75A
2. 24v - 1377rpm - 1.37A adjust timing
3. 36v - 2025rpm - 1.75A

Timing Arc about 45 - 50 degrees
1. 12v - 785rpm - 0.85A
2. 24v - 1615rpm - 1.39A
3. 36v - 2415rpm - 1.77A

Timing Arc about 65 - 70 degrees
1. 12v - 977rpm - 1.12A
2. 24v - 2079rpm - 1.80A
3. 36v - 3157rpm - 2.13A

Timing Arc about 70 - 80 degrees
1. 12v - 1105rpm - 1.40A
2. 24v - 2474rpm - 2.09A
3. 36v - 3695rpm - 2.50A

The ZFM Proto data does indicate that for the ZFM AL Proto the following were demonstrated:
1. The speed increases with voltage for all firing arc durations.
2. The firing arc duration is influenced by the size and number of timing rotor magnets. The greater the magnetic field influence the greater the firing arc duration. This can be modified by the relative distance of the timing rotor Neo's to the reed switches - in the above instances maximum rpm was desired.
3. The amperage from the battery increases with greater firing arc duration and resultant rpm.
4. The magnetic strength of the rotor magnets modifies the speed of the ZFM at all the input voltages tested

The above data is not definitive, but can be viewed as an indicator of performance and motor behavior.

Excuse the rez on the video - a bit challenged here in the hills with the upload speed. However do note the wave pattern in the last segment of the video. This pattern is very reminiscent of the patterns produced by the SSG wheel at higher speeds in the transition zones. I looked at this very closely back earlier this year - amazing similarities.

There is still much that can be learned from the Aluminum rotor ZFM, alas the iron core rotor will be completed tomorrow and if all goes well it should be operational before New Year's day. The iron rotor will have four 3/4"Dx3/8"T Neo's glued to the rotor. The recommended adhesive from the techies at Loctite is 332 along with the primer 7387 obtained from Applied Industrial Technologies. Pricey for a years supply...

May the Spirit of Christmas gladden your lives,
Yaro

Hi Yaro,

Great to see the improvement and the project coming along. I got side tracked looking at pancake coils but will try and start winding coils for a ZFM tomorrow. Another thing one can see in your data, if kinetic energy is equal to 1/2mV2, in widening the pulse length power consumption increased less than 2 fold while kinetic energy increased more than four fold, so the wide pulse length clearly seems more efficient and perhaps more than twice so. Possibly another reason John had mentioned that this machine isn't a generator, the coil is on and saturated for a great deal of time for any spike, that and the spike somehow with the ZFM set-up and air core behaves "backwards". Don't understand but just saw that when I rectified off the air coil ZFM spike the rotor was dragged. This would also imply to me that unlike the SSG, the spike in an air coil ZFM is likely part of what is driving the rotor. Want another mystery, why haven't you fried all your transistors? I'm not being a wise guy, I have no idea and I have also never built a large powered SSG, but you were drawing 9 watts through two trannys so 4.5 watts per tranny and the spike wasn't shunted to any load or neon bulb etc. Again I'm not expert here so maybe someone who is will chime in, but I would think 3055's would not be at all expected to survive that.

[Yaro1776]

ZFM Proto Mods AL Rotor and Vid 3

Holiday Greetings to all,

The Aluminum rotor mod was completed first and the upgraded Neo's (3/4"Dx 3/8"T N52) installed. After the assembly of the rotor Neo's the unit was installed in the motor assembly. The greater strength Neo's markedly improved the speed performance of the ZFM proto at all operating dc voltages (12, 24 and 36voltages). However, the torque on the motor with this rotor remains low... There is no high speed O-scope available to inspect the voltages to the coils in detail.

Results
Timing Arc about 40 -45 degrees
1. 12v - 485rpm - 0.75A
2. 24v - 1377rpm - 1.37A adjust timing
3. 36v - 2025rpm - 1.75A

Timing Arc about 45 - 50 degrees
1. 12v - 785rpm - 0.85A
2. 24v - 1615rpm - 1.39A
3. 36v - 2415rpm - 1.77A

Timing Arc about 65 - 70 degrees
1. 12v - 977rpm - 1.12A
2. 24v - 2079rpm - 1.80A
3. 36v - 3157rpm - 2.13A

Timing Arc about 70 - 80 degrees
1. 12v - 1105rpm - 1.40A
2. 24v - 2474rpm - 2.09A
3. 36v - 3695rpm - 2.50A

The ZFM Proto data does indicate that for the ZFM AL Proto the following were demonstrated:
1. The speed increases with voltage for all firing arc durations.
2. The firing arc duration is influenced by the size and number of timing rotor magnets. The greater the magnetic field influence the greater the firing arc duration. This can be modified by the relative distance of the timing rotor Neo's to the reed switches - in the above instances maximum rpm was desired.
3. The amperage from the battery increases with greater firing arc duration and resultant rpm.
4. The magnetic strength of the rotor magnets modifies the speed of the ZFM at all the input voltages tested

The above data is not definitive, but can be viewed as an indicator of performance and motor behavior.

Excuse the rez on the video - a bit challenged here in the hills with the upload speed. However do note the wave pattern in the last segment of the video. This pattern is very reminiscent of the patterns produced by the SSG wheel at higher speeds in the transition zones. I looked at this very closely back earlier this year - amazing similarities.

There is still much that can be learned from the Aluminum rotor ZFM, alas the iron core rotor will be completed tomorrow and if all goes well it should be operational before New Year's day. The iron rotor will have four 3/4"Dx3/8"T Neo's glued to the rotor. The recommended adhesive from the techies at Loctite is 332 along with the primer 7387 obtained from Applied Industrial Technologies. Pricey for a years supply...

May the Spirit of Christmas gladden your lives,
Yaro

[min2oly]

Hey

Here is an update on the 3D Printed version. I'm going to test some different printed rotors and magnet sizes once I get some wire on the stators. I look forward to seeing others data for the iron rotor as a comparison.
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5701[/ATTACH]

DMann

The only thing I would note is the core shape. It looks like you have a square inside rather than an elongated/flat rectangle, not sure how much of a difference that will make - Johns 3d printed version was round I think...?
KR - Patrick

[Yaro1776]

DMann,

Really good looking components that you have created with the 3D printer - all looks good! It will be very interesting to see how this effort progresses with respect to performance. Comparing performance notes, if you will.

Happy Holidays,
Yaro

[DMANN]

Hey

Here is an update on the 3D Printed version. I'm going to test some different printed rotors and magnet sizes once I get some wire on the stators. I look forward to seeing others data for the iron rotor as a comparison.


DMann

[James McDonald]

Zero Force Motor Rotor & Axle Material Dat Sheet

Hi All --

I just wanted to add some more information given to me from the company that makes the DOD
quality "Fe" material for the axle and rotor fabrication. See the attached material data sheets on what
I bought. My Machinist told me he could get to making the Rotor and Axle after Christmas.

-- James

Material Data Sheet 0.500 inch.zip

[ZPDM]

Update:

Just started experimenting again on this, nothing worth a video yet, went a little backwards, not dispiritingly so, also saw some findings maybe worth mentioning. My last version where I ran it at 90 mW for 1000-1100 RPMs had eight 1x1x1/2 magnets oriented NS tangentially with one or more iron core coils. These magnets have a pull strength of about 20 lbs or so. Picked up four 2x1x1/2 magnets with a pull strength of about 40 lbs. I'll get to the interesting stuff in a minute, but first problem was really, really difficult to put these magnets in place on a CD with any precision. Without going into it too much, after great effort I placed the first two magnets on a single CD, which promptly started bending to bring the magnets together. I realized I should have built a square scaffolding on the CD to start, hey if it were a ferromagnetic block that would solve your problem and not have the magnets wanting to fly off easily (not sure if that factored in to the real ZPM build but it sure would make things easier and safer). Don't have a ferromagnetic block, maybe shapeways down the line, but the build was not 1/5th as precise as I would have liked.

So just random coil the new machine was running 600 rpms 90 mWs. It would show 599.5, 600, 599.5 etc as you see with magnets not evenly spaced and an unbalanced rotor where there is no clear sweet spot. A few interesting things though, first with these very very powerful magnets it ran better with an air core, 500 vs 600 RPMs and you finally needed to see a gap with the iron core for best performance. 2) This machine makes no sense, I see how it behaves not real clear on the why or what. Running with the air core as RPMs increased and there was the motor/generator coil decrease in amp draw the air core basically drew no more power than the iron core. When you consider the coil is on for a very, very long time with this machine it is really something. Running an air coil w/o too many winds for a long time should be a huge amp draw but it is not with this machine once it spins up. Not to pick on Yaro but he provides some good data in that he is using much weaker magnets with an air coil, the rest of the machine being very closely scrutinized and uses perhaps a hundred or more times more power to spin a lighter rotor to same rpms. It seems there is a tremendous feedback that goes on, not to harp on this but it makes little sense to me that my machine did not draw more current with the air core, very strange.

Second, JB showed a video where the direction of the spike in this machine reversed whether there was an iron core present or not. When I ran the Mk II one last secret, I pulled off the radiant to a battery or some such, something anyone "skilled in the art" would likely try at some point, it was good for another 100 or so RPMs. With the air core I shunted the radiant to a 1.5 volt battery and it acted like a loaded pick-up coil, it slowed way the heck down, reversed spike. I also recall John writing this wasn't a generator machine, well maybe but it will run real real slow.

So what's next? First I want to rebuild the Mk II with a little more precision and see what I get, using the coils I use, that 20 lb pull wt is about the maximum I suspect you might use before wanting to go to an air core. Next I want to try and build the mk III with at least some precision. From there distribute the lines of force. I will look to do this by placing multiple coils in series (I have a lot of 22 gauge wire lying around and a lot empty one pound coils so that is the first attempt). I don't think you need to set things up exactly like the conference machine, you just need to get lots of lines of force distributed around the perimeter, there is even some JB video, don't know where now where John was talking about the ZFM then mentions the numerous easy force motors he 3d printer built and was saying essentially if I recall right, you could set it up something like that.

So I think I am still on track, will post a vid when I have improvement from my last efforts.

Paul Maher, MD MPH

[DMANN]

Absolutely interested in this thread

I don't currently have the time, money or equipment to do a proper replication and don't want to detract the builders, so I'll just keep lurking. But looking forward to seeing what you guys build.

John K.

This may help someone who at least has a little time and money. I mentioned this on another post. SCALABILITY In the picture here I printed the file piece at 50%. Just remember that all parts will be half the diameter. Most likely the wire gauge would need to decrease to less than 30 awg.

On the opposite end, someone may want to scale up 200% - 400%. Those bearing sizes will be less popular and you may need to make a sleeve to fit your bearing size in the hole (easy solution and not compromising to the integrity of the structure). 400% At x:404.662 mm y: 452.001 mm z: 101.6 mm That would be a large 3D printer.

Just for thought

Mann

[DMANN]

What is with the strong attraction between 1:54 and 1:58 of the video. Is there some iron in the core at the "on" period (22.5 degree to 67.5 degree)? That can't be the trigger magnets to the reeds? Maybe it is just the rotor neo to the bolts at the 12 o'clock which conveniently allows it to go to start position.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TICXxP1jI4

Mann

Answered already End of post #117.

[John_Koorn]

... I was becoming a bit concerned that there were few out there interested in the ZFM ...

Absolutely interested in this thread

I don't currently have the time, money or equipment to do a proper replication and don't want to detract the builders, so I'll just keep lurking. But looking forward to seeing what you guys build.

John K.

[Yaro1776]

Yaro,
Are you using the Doctor's bipolar schematic? If so what ratings are you using on the components? I have used reed switching on my window motor. To big of a trigger magnet can equal to much on time and you will have trouble getting it to the resonant point where it speeds up where it produces less heat on the components/coils. The trigger rotors that I design for the file are fairly easy to twist on the shaft until you find the spot you want where you can permanently mount them. They are set up with small .125 diameter magnets. Without a build of this design I may be pissing on the floor in the dark. I'm feeling motivated to get a start on this.

DMann

I am using the ZFM Demo circuit (a bit modified by John B. from Peter's original) as the coil polarity flipping device - this is the circuit James MacDonald assembled from the conference digital pics. James has posted that circuit a couple of pages back, James ordered the parts,assembled them and sent to me for testing. It has functioned without a burp and only warmed to about a 100F when I was thrashing the machine at 36v at maximum firing arc duration.

The circuit schematic has all the specs and details. It works well!!

One item to note - one or two small bolts in the rotor body, positioned at 12 o'clock or 0 degrees provides a self aligning and starting feature for the motor. This simple mod makes the timing and tuning process simpler - one of the rotor Neo's will align with the bolts. One of Peter L's neat discoveries!

Yaro