Zero Force Motor Replication Project

[Faraday88]

Hi ZPD,

Yes I felt the same thing...why not ask Peter or Tom himself on this and Many such doubts...
Rgds,
Faraday88.

[Lman]

Thanks Patrick. Was there another video showing the rotor magnets (stopped) and the timing wheel?

John K.

Hi John K,
In DVD 25 John shows similar if not the very same blue rotor.

That would have been nice... John mentioned using only 3 poles and the wheel having 8 magnets... perhaps a miss-speak. It doesn't sound like that part was all that important to create the effect though.

Hi min2oly,
I think it is 8 magnets on the rotor and 3 on the timing wheel. John uses timing wheel with 3 poles at 120 degree with the full bipolar switch on the window motors. Probably he had it at hand and decided to use it just to show the proof of concept.


Regards
Lman

[Yaro1776]

Try doing this first before getting into too much money...

Hello min2oly,

Thanks for bringing up that video again - I believe that I have viewed it nearly a dozen times and each time something new appears. Anyway, I will continue on this path to replicate the original demo model - a better and more educational investment than wine, women and song - done that!

This last video by JB really nails what the ZFM is all about and the principles are there...

I am just about finished with the current iteration of the prototype and ready to move on to the next phase, but a few points observed from a few simple tests yesterday morning:

1) I released the shaft/bearing set screws and moved the magnet rotor in and out from the coil centerline to determine the maximum of displacement before rpm loss - this yielded about 1/2" in either direction, rather forgiving. Also observed the shaft slowly being pushed away from the coil during rotation.

2) Rotated the reed switch mount in either direction to see the limits of angular motion before the rpm's dropped off. The existing firing arc as controlled by the timing wheel is about 70 - 75 degrees (best rpm). The total motion observed was about 40 degrees - need to check this again since theoretically there should only be 15 - 20 degrees available.

3) The timing wheel has 2 sets of opposing Neo magnets (0.250" dia x 0.125" thick) double stacked for a total of eight Neo's - best rpm estimated at 200-250 at 24 volts with a 2.8 amp draw. At 12 volts rpm drops off to about 100. Removing a layer of Neo's (4 total) drops the rpm to about a 100 - 120 at 24 volts ; the firing arc is reduced to about 45 degrees. At 12 volts the rpm becomes about 60.

4) After the above simple tests the proto ZFM was brought back to the starting configuration and run for over five minutes. The coil temperature became hot to the touch and the motor was shut down. Temperature of the coil surface read 125 degrees F and the BP switch circuit at 99 F. Not happy with these temps, but the machine is still in a raw state.

A few more things to check and then moving on to the next mods - very educational process.

One question - Aaron in an early post mentioned that the toroidal coils were 4 strands in series connected serially, but wound in a figure eight pattern. What does this mean?

Yaro

[min2oly]

Hi John K,
In DVD 25 John shows similar if not the very same blue rotor.



Hi min2oly,
I think it is 8 magnets on the rotor and 3 on the timing wheel. John uses timing wheel with 3 poles at 120 degree with the full bipolar switch on the window motors. Probably he had it at hand and decided to use it just to show the proof of concept.


Regards
Lman

Yes, thought I said that... however - minus the 120 degree part. you can not line up 8 and 3 :-) so I thought perhaps he miss-spoke, or he just lined up 3 trigger mangets with 3 on the wheel.
K.R. - Patrick

[min2oly]

Question. Does the motor in this video represent the principle of the ZFM with a trigger coil? It starts out in the standard SSG configuration and then the coil is flipped horizontal.

DMann

Yes - Patrick

[John_Koorn]

That would have been nice... John mentioned using only 3 poles and the wheel having 8 magnets... perhaps a miss-speak. It doesn't sound like that part was all that important to create the effect though.

From memory that rotor has all North out neo magnets. I did notice another timing wheel in the background, perhaps John tried a couple that he had on hand and the three pole timing wheel ran better.

I'm guessing the machine in the video was purely for demonstration purposes, just to show the effect.

John K.

[Aaron Murakami]

Question. Does the motor in this video represent the principle of the ZFM with a trigger coil? It starts out in the standard SSG configuration and then the coil is flipped horizontal.

DMann

I don't know if it is just me but that is someone showing a demo with a Tom Bearden video being played in the background.

That doesn't look like Tom Bearden demonstrating anything. Someone else is doing a demo with them wanting to quote Tom Bearden in a way that they believe directly applies to their demo.

That is just an SG circuit and is not the ZFM circuit.

Someone mentions the 3rd axis. If it is up and down like SG, that is the first, they lower it down so magnet sweeps across the poles which is the 2nd, so obviously the 3rd is rotating the laying down one 90 degrees so it cuts the coil in half across the bloch wall.

Still, it's not the ZFM.

[Faraday88]

I don't know if it is just me but that is someone showing a demo with a Tom Bearden video being played in the background.

That doesn't look like Tom Bearden demonstrating anything. Someone else is doing a demo with them wanting to quote Tom Bearden in a way that they believe directly applies to their demo.

That is just an SG circuit and is not the ZFM circuit.

Someone mentions the 3rd axis. If it is up and down like SG, that is the first, they lower it down so magnet sweeps across the poles which is the 2nd, so obviously the 3rd is rotating the laying down one 90 degrees so it cuts the coil in half across the bloch wall.

Still, it's not the ZFM.

Hi Aaron,
how come no one could guess that!!!!! it could be true ...I think it is from the DVD 1 where Tom speak about the EFTV concepts...yeah..
of course the 3 rd axis that was me who said that!! but stood by you saying it is not the ZFM anyway!!!
Rgds,
Faraday88.

[min2oly]

I don't know if it is just me but that is someone showing a demo with a Tom Bearden video being played in the background.

That doesn't look like Tom Bearden demonstrating anything. Someone else is doing a demo with them wanting to quote Tom Bearden in a way that they believe directly applies to their demo.

That is just an SG circuit and is not the ZFM circuit.

Someone mentions the 3rd axis. If it is up and down like SG, that is the first, they lower it down so magnet sweeps across the poles which is the 2nd, so obviously the 3rd is rotating the laying down one 90 degrees so it cuts the coil in half across the bloch wall.

Still, it's not the ZFM.

Hi Aaron,
kind of thought it was understood that was not Tom Bearden and only a recording of him playing in the background. Thanks for pointing that out though for anyone who may have been confused. Yes, while that is not THE "ZFM motor" it is an attempt at the time (2011) to demonstrate a principle, whether on purpose or by accident, the ZFM employees.

The ZFM ckt is just a Window Motor ckt is just a switch, JB ran that first "Ball" Window Motor on an SSG ckt...

I remember back on the Yahoo Forums when John first posted his video with the blue wheel this and his Window Motor build have always stood out from the time more recently it's been other things...

I hope it does not sound like I'm claiming anything here - I'm not, there are just some things that seem to me as "a given"

I'm really missing John right now - sorry
KR - Patrick

[Mike Klimesh]

zero force motor/generator

John mentioned using only 3 poles and the wheel having 8 magnets...

Do you think he was trying to show us a 3 magnet lenzless motor driving a 5 magnet lenzless generator?
A generator like he showed in the 1984 book?
If you have done the demo where John is inserting the iron tube into the laid down coil you would know why he states he really does not like to do it.
Why? Because it will shock the **** out of you at times (+_+)

Mike

[min2oly]

Do you think he was trying to show us a 3 magnet lenzless motor driving a 5 magnet lenzless generator?
A generator like he showed in the 1984 book?
If you have done the demo where John is inserting the iron tube into the laid down coil you would know why he states he really does not like to do it.
Why? Because it will shock the **** out of you at times (+_+)

Mike

**** had me laughing...
3 pole with 5 generator poles - interesting concept, kind of like the schoolboy motor...
Sadly no, one of the way's you know you have the ZFM configuration is by looking at the scope and you see very little in the way of potential from the coil. If you look in-between the spikes you see very minimal wave from the passing magnets.
KR - Patrick

[John_Koorn]

Adding to the conversation

The main characteristic of the ZFM is that the rotor magnets pass along the length of the stator, they do not cut the lines of flux of the stator. Very important.

As Patrick highlighted, also very important, is the wave form - very little being generated into the stator by the passing magnets. It's definitely a motor, not a generator. And I believe it's because of this that there is no Lenz law to combat. The purpose of the magnets in the ZFM is only to sustain rotation.

The reason for the Bedini/Cole circuit being used is because of the triggering. The model Peter built used reed switches, the demonstration model John shows in the "blue rotor" video uses hall triggering. You cannot use a trigger wire on the ZFM - must be either reed or hall triggered.

John K.

[ZPDM]

Alright as I started this thread, in the Mk II video I demonstrated a, just from holding it in my hand, maybe 1 lb CD sized rotor, rotating at 1,000 -1,100 RPMs from 90 milliwatts input (9 volts 10 milliamps). It was constructed based from the findings I documented in the previous three videos. I had planned to leave it there as I felt it demonstrated sufficiently some of the principles behind the ZFM to allow for others to replicate. To honor John I am setting a goal of completing by Christmas a Bedini ZFM that will rotate a 1 lb rotor at 1000 RPMs using 45 milliwatts of power. I don't suspect that will be a difficult bar to meet and have in the back of my mind a stretch goal of using 9 milliwatts for the same. It will again not use a bipolar commutator circuit, just one hall effect and one transistor, it will not use a timing wheel-just the magnets on the rotor, which is one area where I suspect optimization is possible, it will again be a CDs, superglue, balsawood, and skateboard bearing type of build, again improvement in that area would also likely have a noticeable effect. While it won't be a true replica of the ZFM machine John and Peter built and demonstrated if I do succeed in again halving the input power for the same work with the Mk III, maybe consider cutting me some slack that I might be onto something in trying to discern what John and Peter were engineering for. Yaro, I am sorry you didn't have greater success with your first build attempt, it also takes courage to post negative results (negative study bias I believe it is called), perhaps a timing problem with your machine, don't know. There was for me at least one entirely novel finding that I didn't understand prior to starting to try and replicate this machine, it is documented in one of the videos I posted I think I even said, this is the most important finding of the video or some such, as I said the other preliminary work recorded in the three videos leading up to the Mk II guided that build.

I don't enjoy the idea of possibly demonstrating a version better than the Mk II, but I opened this can of worms by starting the thread and now I feel I owe it John to be as open as I can about his ZFM. Besides, maybe I was just lucky with the Mk II and the things I think I am engineering for actually aren't the important ones, things do have a way of sometimes going kerfluey with experiments don't they? So it deserves to be confirmed a little more concretely, I'll certainly enjoy that part and if successful will try and answer people's questions, again the plan is to have something to report by the Holidays.

Paul

[Yaro1776]

ZFM Proto Basic Specs

Hello all,

There have been several types of Zero Force motors demonstrated on this thread with differing coil and magnet arrangements - this does make it difficult for the new experimenters to discern what is what.

The ZFM Proto is nearly a direct replication of the motor demonstrated at the 2016 Energy Conference and explained by John B. The basic configuration is as follows:

1) Two toroidal coils wound with 280 to 300 ft of #20AWG mag wire each and are wound around a 90 degree segment of sched40 4"dia. plastic pipe - all of this can be viewed in the pics at the beginning of this thread. Essentially two 90 degree toroidal coils without an iron core opposing each other and separated by a 90 degree spaces. Resistance of each coil 2.80 - 3.00 ohms.

2) The motor's rotor is approximately 2 1/2" diameter with 4 Neo magnets (0.75"D x 0.25"T) facing out radially in a NSNS arrangement with a 90 degree separation through their centerlines. The specific gap requirement between the coils and Neo's is unknown, but one can assume 1/4"-3/8" as a starting point. The magnet thickness is an assumption - may be more or less, still to be determined.

The coil resistance and the magnetic orientation were confirmed at Bedini's shop by RS with JB's help. So this good... The wire size was estimated to be #20 by direct comparison to an SSG coil at the conference's Teslagenx table and ZFM demo side by side.

3) The Bipolar switch - standard unit described on this forum multiple times. This switch is triggered by the timing rotor and its purpose is to fire the main transistor pairs and to reverse the polarity of the coils. The coils are wired in series and connected to the output terminals of the Bipolar switch. The reed wires are connected to two small transistors to initiate firing and polarity change. I believe that this is the correct explanation.

4) The timing rotor can be any convenient diameter, such that the firing cycle duration and timing can be controlled. In this instance a 1 3/4" diameter was used for the timing rotor with opposing two side by side 0.25" drill holes. Small Neo magnets are used in this particular case (0.25"dia X 0.125"T). The reed switches in this particular proto are rated for 2.5 amps. The reed switches are located 90 degrees apart parallel to the shaft centerline and with the glass ends about 1/2" away from the OD of the timing wheel. Adjust from there to the firing point and duration by experimenting with the reed switch location and the number of timing rotor magnets

So truly the major variables that need to be resolved are listed above, while the timing and duration of the firing cycle are the major sticky points. The devil is in the details.

ZPDM illustrates the simplicity of the concept and demonstrates this with with several worthwhile videos earlier in this thread. There is another set of informative and well done demonstration videos by min2oly that it is recommended to view. Then there are the videos by John Bedini that fully demonstrate the ZFM in its various guises.

By the way - the starting torque of this ZFM Proto is not overwhelming at this point of development.

A work in progress here with forward steps and set backs, but all are good in developing an appreciation for this machine and its potential, and just maybe, a working model.

All is good,
Yaro

[min2oly]

I just want to zero in on this, many have commented before regarding window motor that it is a very good idea to focus in on the half bipolar switch like the one JB demonstrated in the video I posted with the blue wheel. Tuning is tricky enough with the "half" let alone the "full" bipolar. Below was drawn up for the full bipolar hall configuration, just cut it in half:


I'll also attach the half using trigger coil:


One can easily replace hall with reed. I also recomend watching JB's 3D printed video on the Zero Force to see how he gets two switches per magnet pass. This was an interesting function...

Hello all,

There have been several types of Zero Force motors demonstrated on this thread with differing coil and magnet arrangements - this does make it difficult for the new experimenters to discern what is what.


3) The Bipolar switch - standard unit described on this forum multiple times. This switch is triggered by the timing rotor and its purpose is to fire the main transistor pairs and to reverse the polarity of the coils. The coils are wired in series and connected to the output terminals of the Bipolar switch. The reed wires are connected to two small transistors to initiate firing and polarity change. I believe that this is the correct explanation.



All is good,
Yaro