160 Amp solar Tracker 5

[John_Koorn]

Thanks Peter and John for your responses.

I'll keep looking for panels with a higher operating voltage, but Uni-solar seems to be a fairly popular brand and don't make 24v amorphous panels with a higher voltage. I'll also look at 12v panels and an inverter to match.

John, I'm looking at 2 panels in parallel to start with and then adding more as money permits. I have a 24V 80A TST5 I'm planning on using for my off-grid setup.

John K.

[Tom C]

those flexible amorphous panels work really well, I have a friend who has one on top of his airstream, charges really well even in low light.

Tom C

[John_Bedini]

John K,
I would use this panel, but I have also used the second one. They will both work with the Tracker 5
The first one is http://www.solaronline.com.au/uni-so...e-backing.html

Model PVL 136
Rated Power 136 Watts
Operating Voltage 33 V
Open Circuit Voltage 46.2 V
Operating Current 4.13 A
Short Circuit Current 5.1 A
Dimensions 5486 x 394 x 4 mm
Weight 7.7 kg

Are going to use only one panel? or are you going to put 3 or 4 of them together?
John

[Retep]

Hey John, Great Question...

Hi Peter,

Thank you for a very informative (and FREE!) eBook!

I'm looking to install a solar system and was particularly interested in the information you wrote about the Amorphous Silicon panels. It certainly does make more sense to use these instead of the mono-crystalline panels which seem to be all the rage. I also like the Amorphous panels as they are flexible and lightweight and easier to install.

I've started doing a little research on what's available and the cost of these panels, but have a question about which of the below two panels would be more suited to the Tesla Solar Tracker 5.

The first one is http://www.solaronline.com.au/uni-so...e-backing.html

Model	PVL 136
Rated Power	136 Watts
Operating Voltage	33 V
Open Circuit Voltage	46.2 V
Operating Current	4.13 A
Short Circuit Current	5.1 A
Dimensions	5486 x 394 x 4 mm
Weight	7.7 kg

It seems to have above the recommended Voc, but lower than the recommended operating voltage.

The second one is http://www.solaronline.com.au/uni-so...lar-panel.html

Model	PVL 124
Rated Power	124 Watts
Operating Voltage	30 V
Open Circuit Voltage	42 V
Operating Current	4.1 A
Short Circuit Current	5.1 A
Dimensions	5007 x 394 x 3.3 mm
Weight	7.0 kg
Design Life	> 20 years

This one has the recommended Voc, but the operating voltage is lower than recommended.

Are any of these suitable for the Tesla Solar Tracker 5, if so which one would you recommend?

John K.

Hi John,

Great questions! All of the Tesla Solar Tracker 5 units, rated for 24 volt battery systems, have the input specs of an Input Voltage at max power (Vmp) rated at 37 volts. The Linear Amplifier creates a "voltage wall" at 30.4 volts, so when the system is passing maximum currents, the switching devices have to dissipate the differential voltage across the devices, which is why the systems are cooled with a fan and a big heat sink. To pass currents from the panels to the batteries, you need some "head room" above the voltage wall. So, the second panel you list here, with an "operating voltage" at about 30 volts, will probably not pass much current. The first panel you list is still rated a little bit low, at 33 volts, which is only about 2.6 volts above the wall. The amount of current the Tesla Solar Tracker 5 will pass is a function of the voltage differential (Vmp - 30.4) and the impedance of the system from the panels to the batteries. On bench tests I've run on 12 volt systems, it takes about 2.5 volts above the wall to release the current to max. So if the panel is rated at just 2.6 volts above the wall for full sun conditions, it's going to turn OFF too soon under clouds.

Personally, I would not select either of these panels. You are better off looking for panels with the right specs rather than trying to "make do" with what might be easily available.

Don't worry about the Open Circuit Voltage (Voc) being a little high, because the input devices are rated well above these levels for voltage and the entire system input is fused for current. So, slightly higher Voc ratings are tolerated well by the Tesla Solar Tracker 5 series. By contrast, a panel with too high of a Vmp rating may make the Tesla Solar Tracker 5 run at full power under clouds but also run too hot during full sun conditions. There is a sweet spot where you can get max power most of the time without frying the unit under full sun. That is what you are looking for, and that is why John builds them with such a robust cooling system.

Hope that helps.

Peter

[John_Koorn]

Hi Peter,

Thank you for a very informative (and FREE!) eBook!

I'm looking to install a solar system and was particularly interested in the information you wrote about the Amorphous Silicon panels. It certainly does make more sense to use these instead of the mono-crystalline panels which seem to be all the rage. I also like the Amorphous panels as they are flexible and lightweight and easier to install.

I've started doing a little research on what's available and the cost of these panels, but have a question about which of the below two panels would be more suited to the Tesla Solar Tracker 5.

The first one is http://www.solaronline.com.au/uni-so...e-backing.html

Model	PVL 136
Rated Power	136 Watts
Operating Voltage	33 V
Open Circuit Voltage	46.2 V
Operating Current	4.13 A
Short Circuit Current	5.1 A
Dimensions	5486 x 394 x 4 mm
Weight	7.7 kg

It seems to have above the recommended Voc, but lower than the recommended operating voltage.

The second one is http://www.solaronline.com.au/uni-so...lar-panel.html

Model	PVL 124
Rated Power	124 Watts
Operating Voltage	30 V
Open Circuit Voltage	42 V
Operating Current	4.1 A
Short Circuit Current	5.1 A
Dimensions	5007 x 394 x 3.3 mm
Weight	7.0 kg
Design Life	> 20 years

This one has the recommended Voc, but the operating voltage is lower than recommended.

Are any of these suitable for the Tesla Solar Tracker 5, if so which one would you recommend?

John K.

[Aaron Murakami]

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[Faraday88]

Hi Luman,

I'm on the contrary now very curious to know what led you so much towards getting Tortured???? please take your time and don't feel dejected.
be it another thread..
Rgds,
Faraday88.

[Lman]

Yes John, I understand why the basics are so important. That is why I read from many sources as I learn, since some are not very well explained or not complete enough. And even if I think I know something I still go and read just to check different approaches for a solution to something. And the lesson I learned also is that we should stop looking at ICs with the name they gave them. I looked at a schematic of a voltage regulator and there are like 26 transistors inside, but that should not be a surprise as a CPU has in fact billions.
Now I am looking at an apple while thinking that this is just a short name for an oval shaped fruit stuffed with vitamins, minerals, some acids and whatever else. And that is why a rock is not just a rock for you.

Well, my head is spinning again from what you said about the light control. Another unique feature done in the typical for you amazingly simple and genial way. This feature reminds me of the people practicing "sun-eating", as they have to do it at exactly the same sun spectrum. Early morning at sunrise or at sunset when the sun is reddish. This way they charge the mitochondria in their body's cells and they do not need food. That in turn reminds me your words in EFTV2 where you say that we do not run on "that candy bar".

The only thing I knew so far about hi and low pass filters was that they are made out of inductors and capacitors, or resistors and capacitors. In the video with the SSG Linear Amplifier I noticed the small resistor along with the capacitor as you point to the zener that controls the circuit. But I associated it with audio filter as the circuit comes from the audio amplifier. Who would have thought it was related to light. It makes perfect sense to me though. Color is a frequency and it can be filtered.
I was thinking how do you switch between one and another spectrum, than and I read just enough to understand that this is also impedance dependent. As you said - no need computer for this or some complicated DSP


Totally agree about the research. Some people do not do or just do not do it enough. But also you are in your own league when it comes to versatile knowledge and experience.
This is the place to thank you again for your guidance and patience.


Thankfully
Lman


P.S.

Faraday88,
I do not know what fascinated you so much but I will tell you that my "taste of likings" turns to be also a torture for me. The musical training and education developed my hearing to one level, than doing sound it advanced on another level and nowadays I can hardly listen and enjoy music anymore. The crappy music and sound is overtook everything. But I stop here as this is not for this thread.


All the best

[Faraday88]

Lman,
Now you understand why it is so important to understand just basic circuits and how they function. As I have said before about that I make changes all the time with tracker 5's. That is one of the reasons I'm building my own Hybrid's then I have total control of the circuits. I can then apply more feedback to the circuits for control. I could then look at all states of the charge. One of the functions is not only load control but also light control as the sun dims you could increase current from the panels by using a band pass filter circuit as the panels have a peak in the color spectrum even on a cloudy day. you do not need a computer do any of this as it can all be done with analog devices. Solar units can be made by the novice by watching the video link you posted, I have checked his circuits some small changes must be made but it will charge the battery within limits of the device. He is not telling about beta matching so gain could be a problem. people do not want to do the research so things become mysterious, that could be further from the truth. No secretes with solar charging, it either charges or it doesn't.
John B

Hi John, I really admire at the way you state things, especially your super strong hold on the Semiconductor devices and its Physics governing the way they behave, I have studied your earlier postings else where also and I just love to read the way you describe them, you have had the advantage of being from the age where Computers were controlled by man unlike most of us here who rely more on believing what is fed to us by way of internet, simulation...ect.. yes I'm cent percent in agreement with you when you say that people do not research...people think the internet has helped them in all the ways. Think again.. may be no.. all that is good is not good in all the way!!!
John on the other hand you are blessed to gift others with the best that you can and why not? this makes you the kind of guy that you are..
The next generation posses a more difficult challenge in that it needs to use the developing resources keeping in mind without getting deterred from its over use..
just my 2 cents for the gyaan on this stuff.
Best Regards,
Faraday88.

[John_Bedini]

My Own Hybrid's

Lman,
Now you understand why it is so important to understand just basic circuits and how they function. As I have said before about that I make changes all the time with tracker 5's. That is one of the reasons I'm building my own Hybrid's then I have total control of the circuits. I can then apply more feedback to the circuits for control. I could then look at all states of the charge. One of the functions is not only load control but also light control as the sun dims you could increase current from the panels by using a band pass filter circuit as the panels have a peak in the color spectrum even on a cloudy day. you do not need a computer do any of this as it can all be done with analog devices. Solar units can be made by the novice by watching the video link you posted, I have checked his circuits some small changes must be made but it will charge the battery within limits of the device. He is not telling about beta matching so gain could be a problem. people do not want to do the research so things become mysterious, that could be further from the truth. No secretes with solar charging, it either charges or it doesn't.
John B

Hi John,

Seems I got it a little wrong about how the zener works, in my previous post. But than I remembered what I saw in the videos you, Peter L. and Aaron showed us.
After reading again more articles and having seen so many schematics, variations and examples, I started to connect the dots. I need to put one of those big heatsinks on my head, as the ICs inside will start to smoke. But it was worth it at the end. Now I think I understand much better what happens.
The zener and the base-emitter junction of the series-pass are interacting and forming a variable resistor, which based on the load impedance controls the current. Now I see the importance of the beta that must be calculated properly, and the voltage that feeds the input of the amplifier.
And the capacitor helps in two ways I think - it filters and helps stabilize the reference point.
Also makes me realize how beautiful devices those TO3 in the audio amp are.

I read also that this arrangement with the darlington and the capacitor to base is much more stable, and significantly reduces the quiescent/idling current down to miliamps, making it in some cases more effective than three pin device. Which tells me again two things :
- in the case of the charger the losses are reduced to almost nothing.
- in the case with the audio amplifier the efficiency is very very high and I see why most if not all of your amplifiers are Class A

I am trying to imagine the tube amplifier you mentioned that Eric Dollard built.

I highly recommend to all visitors of the forum to check the audio section of the forum. Even if you are not very audio oriented, now after John has explained so much you will see some amazing amplifiers. And the page is very well done by the admin.


John, I am re-reading again the earlier posts in the thread and beginning to understand what actually you are talking about.
I have my suspicions and speculations about the other devices, which we saw on the right side of the circuit board in the video. But first I have to study a little more to see if I am right in my thinking and than probably ask you.
One thing that concerns me - are not we disclosing too much of the circuit before the conference ? I do not want to steal the excitement of some people who will attend it.

Thankful
Lman

[Faraday88]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the fast responses and especially to John Bedini, having in mind that he is so busy with the new S3A12 and preparing for the conference.

In my previous post as I mentioned about the implementation of S3A12, one of the ideas that came to my mind was to put it in series between the alternator and the accumulator, in order to keep the last properly charged. Now that John pointed out to the regulator in the alternator I think that this idea might not work in this case. I am not sure. As the S3A12 is tracking the impedance and controlling the charge, I assume that the regulator inside the alternator might not see the accumulator and not start supplying power. Or if it starts it would not sense how to control it and lead to braking the S3A12. Well, just and idea I wanted to share.
But we definitely must study the servo control as John has pointed out to it twice, and it is the key to the heart of how the charge is controlled.

Faraday88,
On your question about the John's Surround Sound I think his B.A.S.E technology is involved. But not only this as it is the whole concept of how John deals with sound. It is the whole chain from the source playing to your ears. Purest sound in - purest sound out plus something more, plus the emotions you get
I think I would open a thread in the audio section of the forum to share some thoughts in order not to deflect the direction of this one.

Later I will post another link to some very useful video that taught me a lot and I think should be posted here.


Lman

Hey Lman,
Your 'taste of likings' sounds very fascinating go ahead and start the new thread that you suggest looking forward to it..
Rgds,
Faraday88.

[Lman]

The Impedance Sensing !

Hi John,

Seems I got it a little wrong about how the zener works, in my previous post. But than I remembered what I saw in the videos you, Peter L. and Aaron showed us.
After reading again more articles and having seen so many schematics, variations and examples, I started to connect the dots. I need to put one of those big heatsinks on my head, as the ICs inside will start to smoke. But it was worth it at the end. Now I think I understand much better what happens.
The zener and the base-emitter junction of the series-pass are interacting and forming a variable resistor, which based on the load impedance controls the current. Now I see the importance of the beta that must be calculated properly, and the voltage that feeds the input of the amplifier.
And the capacitor helps in two ways I think - it filters and helps stabilize the reference point.
Also makes me realize how beautiful devices those TO3 in the audio amp are.

I read also that this arrangement with the darlington and the capacitor to base is much more stable, and significantly reduces the quiescent/idling current down to miliamps, making it in some cases more effective than three pin device. Which tells me again two things :
- in the case of the charger the losses are reduced to almost nothing.
- in the case with the audio amplifier the efficiency is very very high and I see why most if not all of your amplifiers are Class A

I am trying to imagine the tube amplifier you mentioned that Eric Dollard built.

I highly recommend to all visitors of the forum to check the audio section of the forum. Even if you are not very audio oriented, now after John has explained so much you will see some amazing amplifiers. And the page is very well done by the admin.


John, I am re-reading again the earlier posts in the thread and beginning to understand what actually you are talking about.
I have my suspicions and speculations about the other devices, which we saw on the right side of the circuit board in the video. But first I have to study a little more to see if I am right in my thinking and than probably ask you.
One thing that concerns me - are not we disclosing too much of the circuit before the conference ? I do not want to steal the excitement of some people who will attend it.

Thankful
Lman

[guyzzemf]

the video

in 12 high currant /out 5 high currant/ reg 5.7 low currant .7 over to turn on transistor
same in 20 hc out 12 hc /reg 12.7 Lc / .7 turn on transistor
quote
Think about how he said adding 12.7 volts to the base circuit, would it not be much easier to just turn on the transistor from collector to base with a fixed value and then using a zener to ground in the darlington circuit?

take reg voltage off collector to base with a fixed value

[Lman]

Thank you John,

I am learning because you lead me into the right direction.
I just stopped looking at those alternator's regulator schematics, and concluded that it was more simple than I thought.
In the past they used relays, burning the contacts and changing relays. And nowadays it is always the Zener diode that do the sensing. So in non conductive state the current goes to one circuit to charge the accumulator/battery, and in conductive state the zener controls another circuit diverting the energy to the ground. Simple as that.
And I thought indeed that there is a divider for the zener in the SSG Linear Amplifier charger, but your last post cleared that out.

I have seen people are doing their own alternator regulators, or do them externally which tells me that there must be some way S3A12 to be used in the car and keep the accumulator in top shape.

About what the guy said in the video adding 12.7 volts to the base got me thinking the first time I watched it. As far as I know about electronics at this stage, most of the transistors require around 5 volts. So this is something new to study now. And about the capacitor to base, I asked you in my first post if it acts as a capacitance multiplier as well but seems you missed it.

By the way I forgot to mention to you. What a great choice of music for the demonstration of the audio amp. You just have no idea what this video did to me, bringing me to tears.
When the video started I heard the noisy microphone and had it in mind. Plus your point was to show us the technology as the real magic can only be heard in front of the speakers.
Than began the music I thought what a nice smooth jazz instrumental. And when I heard the singing in portoguese it hit me. Who would have thought that John would listen to brazilian artist. That speaks again about the personality of you John. I have been working with musicians from around the world including latinos and brazilians as well. And that music in the video brought some good memories, plus having you explaining that beautiful amplifier and teaching us got me really emotional. I watched it a couple of times before going to bed and still watch it from time to time
And I do not just believe about the sound but I know that it is crystal clear. If I am right that transformer must be output transformer which means that the efficiency of the amp is higher than 50 percents. And as this amp uses the linear technology it would stand out not only above other Class A but other classes I am sure.

Well, I am going to study now because my audio soul is calling some emotions again

Lman

P.S.
For those interested, the song in the video is called "Voce e linda" (you are beautiful) by Caetano Veloso.

[John_Bedini]

Lman,
Good your learning and not wasting your time. It is simple, however in the case of the series pass device the correct one must be chosen for the voltage and current. One other thing. What I have done here is to combine a beta multiplier meaning the gain of the transistor makes up the filtering by adding a capacitor to the base circuit. Adding one more thing is the Zener circuit and letting the zener control the voltage to the base without that complicated divider circuit. Think about how he said adding 12.7 volts to the base circuit, would it not be much easier to just turn on the transistor from collector to base with a fixed value and then using a zener to ground in the darlington circuit?. Servo amplifiers are used to control DC to drive motors in this case we want a signal to tell the DC amplifier what to do when the battery is charged. The Regulator is just a reference voltage for the amplifier.
Good Work.
John B