160 Amp solar Tracker 5

[Lman]

The "Series-Pass" very well explained !!

Hi all,

Here is the link to a video I mentioned earlier today.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VDs5SZIFLKk

For some people it might be nothing new, but for some electronic newbies like me it is very very well explained.
It might be helpful to anybody who wants to know how to do their own high current regulators.
Watch it till the end. The last minute is important !!


Lman

[Lman]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the fast responses and especially to John Bedini, having in mind that he is so busy with the new S3A12 and preparing for the conference.

In my previous post as I mentioned about the implementation of S3A12, one of the ideas that came to my mind was to put it in series between the alternator and the accumulator, in order to keep the last properly charged. Now that John pointed out to the regulator in the alternator I think that this idea might not work in this case. I am not sure. As the S3A12 is tracking the impedance and controlling the charge, I assume that the regulator inside the alternator might not see the accumulator and not start supplying power. Or if it starts it would not sense how to control it and lead to braking the S3A12. Well, just and idea I wanted to share.
But we definitely must study the servo control as John has pointed out to it twice, and it is the key to the heart of how the charge is controlled.

Faraday88,
On your question about the John's Surround Sound I think his B.A.S.E technology is involved. But not only this as it is the whole concept of how John deals with sound. It is the whole chain from the source playing to your ears. Purest sound in - purest sound out plus something more, plus the emotions you get
I think I would open a thread in the audio section of the forum to share some thoughts in order not to deflect the direction of this one.

Later I will post another link to some very useful video that taught me a lot and I think should be posted here.


Lman

[John_Koorn]

Hi John K,

I have read on John's 3D Surround Sound In some of his old posts, is this Magnetic Field Orientation Amplifier to acoustics as applicable to Electronics Amplifiers..?
the Audio clarifier....ect..
Rgds,
Faraday88.

Sorry Faraday, I don't know the answer to that question.

John K.

[Faraday88]

Hi JB,

'so look at the circuits used in a car alternator, as your car goes down the road never touching the battery, and that alternator is supplying the load and floating the battery, solar panel is nothing more then that with Linear Regulator Amplifier, the Amplifier is no more then that servo controlled by impedance.'
This is a very nice Analogy of how the Tracker must be functioning with out 'touching' the Battery while still channeling Power to the load, wonder how this is affected using
the Solar Panel and the Amplifier...!! Servo mechanism with the Battery Impedance is also the way it works with SSG ...it looks like a lot has to be studied on Amplifiers principle as a Constant Current source and its loads..
Best Regards,
Faraday88.

[Faraday88]

Hi John K,

I have read on John's 3D Surround Sound In some of his old posts, is this Magnetic Field Orientation Amplifier to acoustics as applicable to Electronics Amplifiers..?
the Audio clarifier....ect..
Rgds,
Faraday88.

[Faraday88]

Hi all,

Long time reader and follower, I have been shy to post my thoughts as I started self-teaching myself electronics just two years ago. Being a musician by education and practicing sound engineer, I could not resist posting after I have seen the recent videos of John Bedini.
One word - amazing.
What John has shown us in these videos is that an amplifier is just an amplifier. And because it says audio it means that it is calculated to the audio specification required, but it does not mean that it can not be used for something else. And in the case of the linear current amp (which is also the Solar Tracker 5 technology ) John has done it in the most efficient and clever way I have seen.

John K, Faraday88 and all non audio guys, I recommend you do some 5-10 minutes research about the different audio amplifier classes. If I get it, you will get it for sure. And knowing now that an audio amplifier can be used for other uses it is good to know the different circuits.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amp...lifier-classes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplifier

In short Class A amplifiers are said to be the cleanest sounding but most inefficient class - about 20%. The transistor or vacuum tube is driven through the whole 360 degree cycle of the sound wave, and this is the reason for the heat. Also there is so called quiescent current, meaning it is still conducting some current when there is no audio fed to the amp. With the Class B efficiency raises but so does the distortion, and this is the reason for a new classes like AB1, AB2, D and some hybrids. So with audio it is a trade-off between advantages and disadvantages.
Talking about solar charging now you do not have this inefficiency because all depends on the sun. The sun goes up, it starts conducting. The sun goes down - the conducting ... well, probably does not stop if it catches the shining stars or the moon

What else has John shown us ? That while charging the battery we can take power, and it is not coming from the battery but from the supply first (solar or not). Just think about the implementation of that. You can come up with some ideas I am sure. I do not know any other solar product that can do that, without destroying the battery.
What else ? John mentioned generator mode in the video with the SSG ... just think about what happens when the charging battery is topped. That is the bomb for me.
Guys, if you understand all of this you would know that this is a priceless product.

Doing some research about the terms John used in the videos, I have found some links that would give hints and shed some light on what he is talking about in the videos :

http://www.electroschematics.com/668...dio-amplifier/
http://www.reuk.co.uk/LM317-High-Cur...-Regulator.htm

Not the way John has done it but gives some clues.

John B., correct me if I am wrong, but is not also a capacitor multiplier applied along with the Beta multiplier ?
Also, I am sure you have done it but if the linear current amplifier is coupled with a tube would it gain some sonic quality ?
I wonder if there is a clever way to harness the heat of the amp to heat the cathode of vacuum tubes. That would be fun to experiment with.
You have said in another post, that that audio amp would outperform tube single-ended class A - I suppose sonically, but how efficient is compared to the others ?
If I got it right it is also more efficient than the others.

And last but not least, as this is my first post in the forum I would like to say for lack of better and stronger word, thank you John Bedini for everything you have done for us opening our eyes, ears and minds. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and explaining your technology and circuits patiently to whoever wants to know it all around the world. This suits only to the wiser.
And if there is something that makes me a little sad, it is that you are better known around the world with the alternative energy products than the audio products. I wish that it was not like this as I know that the audio is your first passion, but this is another subject.
The word thank you just lost its power when it comes saying it to you John. This is how I feel learning about the linear amp and upgrading my knowledge about this technology. If I say it 1000 times it would be better but not enough, would 1001 do it ?

Sincerely
Lman

Hey Luman,

Thanks very much Indeed!!! will leisurely go through the links, by the way I'm a good singer

Best Regards,

Faraday88.

[John_Bedini]

The Analysis is correct

Lman ,
Thank you for your post That Analysis is correct. When the Hi-Fi market was given away in the 80's you could no longer compete in the market place.

When Electro Research, ( John Iverson) as we all worked together and the last to go would be Ampzilla ( James Bongiorno) My back ground was with Stwert Hagemann, Saul Martanz and Acoustic Control Corp and RCA. The regulator you point out is a very good starting place for anybody that is instreted in gaining knowledge. The audio Amp is a simple one that anybody can make. That little amp is a very good starting point , if someone would want to understand what is going on. Everything I have always done has been about Amplifiers and what could be done with them. The Tracker 5 uses a select device to do this function, outputs being full complementary two different regulators in one package with emitter followers. So when all is said balance and feedback is important. Anybody can do this if they know what is in the chip. Circuits are important and then the selection of the devices. Understanding in DC servo amps is very important for the control part. Every thing is inter connected to perform a function and not to boil the battery away so impedance of the battery must be looked at.

Amplifiers have been built with this method and it was done by Eric Dollard but the amp was never put into production, and that comes from Peter L who when he saw this amp talked about it, and it was done with tubes.

If one studies the link to the regulator circuit you can find out what will happen if the current gain is under estimated and the output device is not correct for series pass, the darlington transistor here is for gain but incorrect as other adjustments of components must be changed. I have seen it done this way but not very much current, the storage battery is about .0023 Mill Ohms, the circuit is running wide open without protection and the regulator is not fused . That circuit would work but a fixed regulator might work better if you understood the tricks in the ground circuit to control it along with the series pass device, the ground can be altered to work with a npn device for control, you can find ways to controll this by voltage dividers. So if you understand a 5 volt regulator positive and negative you could make any voltage you wanted within limits of the breakdown voltage of the devices. The bad part is industry has take all the control pins away and you must select a device that will work in that range. You might think of it like a negative and positive flip-flop in general terms for control. Do not get me wrong but doing it this way has no protection and no safety features, your at the limit of the device and you can not protect the regulator. Also you will find one circuit missing for stability.

Again I point out Servo Control as you must track the load and adjust between load and no load, the tracker 5 can do this as it can see if the battery is under load (By Impedance), so look at the circuits used in a car alternator, as your car goes down the road never touching the battery, and that alternator is supplying the load and floating the battery, solar panel is nothing more then that with Linear Regulator Amplifier, the Amplifier is no more then that servo controlled by impedance.

Now the next thing I want to say is that the upcoming battery is the Lithium Iron Sulfate cells at 3.2 volts at 22 mill ohms and if your into Solar Power I suggest you take serious look at them. Study the new garden lights and you find out what I'm talking about. The tracker 5 can be adjusted to work with Lithium Iron batteries but the charger must be controlled much finer for the Lithium cells to work properly. Once the charger is working properly the charging time decreases. The output of the cells is a very flat discharge curve and I have not been able to destroy them under any load. The charging is not like a lead acid battery as the Lithium cell shows almost a flat charging curve with solar cells. The current hangs in constant until the end and does not taper the same way. The other thing is it can not be charged by pulse or Radiant as this cell wants flat DC so the conversion method on the SSG would work great.

[John_Koorn]

Hi Lman,

Welcome to the forum. Great first post! I'll be sure to checkout the links your posted.

Totally agree on John B's audio achievements. I've never heard anything sound any better than when played through his amps. Perhaps he will give a demo of his 3D gear at the conference - it will blow your mind.

John K.

[Lman]

Hello everybody !

Hi all,

Long time reader and follower, I have been shy to post my thoughts as I started self-teaching myself electronics just two years ago. Being a musician by education and practicing sound engineer, I could not resist posting after I have seen the recent videos of John Bedini.
One word - amazing.
What John has shown us in these videos is that an amplifier is just an amplifier. And because it says audio it means that it is calculated to the audio specification required, but it does not mean that it can not be used for something else. And in the case of the linear current amp (which is also the Solar Tracker 5 technology ) John has done it in the most efficient and clever way I have seen.

John K, Faraday88 and all non audio guys, I recommend you do some 5-10 minutes research about the different audio amplifier classes. If I get it, you will get it for sure. And knowing now that an audio amplifier can be used for other uses it is good to know the different circuits.

http://www.audioholics.com/audio-amp...lifier-classes
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amplifier

In short Class A amplifiers are said to be the cleanest sounding but most inefficient class - about 20%. The transistor or vacuum tube is driven through the whole 360 degree cycle of the sound wave, and this is the reason for the heat. Also there is so called quiescent current, meaning it is still conducting some current when there is no audio fed to the amp. With the Class B efficiency raises but so does the distortion, and this is the reason for a new classes like AB1, AB2, D and some hybrids. So with audio it is a trade-off between advantages and disadvantages.
Talking about solar charging now you do not have this inefficiency because all depends on the sun. The sun goes up, it starts conducting. The sun goes down - the conducting ... well, probably does not stop if it catches the shining stars or the moon

What else has John shown us ? That while charging the battery we can take power, and it is not coming from the battery but from the supply first (solar or not). Just think about the implementation of that. You can come up with some ideas I am sure. I do not know any other solar product that can do that, without destroying the battery.
What else ? John mentioned generator mode in the video with the SSG ... just think about what happens when the charging battery is topped. That is the bomb for me.
Guys, if you understand all of this you would know that this is a priceless product.

Doing some research about the terms John used in the videos, I have found some links that would give hints and shed some light on what he is talking about in the videos :

http://www.electroschematics.com/668...dio-amplifier/
http://www.reuk.co.uk/LM317-High-Cur...-Regulator.htm

Not the way John has done it but gives some clues.

John B., correct me if I am wrong, but is not also a capacitor multiplier applied along with the Beta multiplier ?
Also, I am sure you have done it but if the linear current amplifier is coupled with a tube would it gain some sonic quality ?
I wonder if there is a clever way to harness the heat of the amp to heat the cathode of vacuum tubes. That would be fun to experiment with.
You have said in another post, that that audio amp would outperform tube single-ended class A - I suppose sonically, but how efficient is compared to the others ?
If I got it right it is also more efficient than the others.

And last but not least, as this is my first post in the forum I would like to say for lack of better and stronger word, thank you John Bedini for everything you have done for us opening our eyes, ears and minds. Thank you for sharing your knowledge and explaining your technology and circuits patiently to whoever wants to know it all around the world. This suits only to the wiser.
And if there is something that makes me a little sad, it is that you are better known around the world with the alternative energy products than the audio products. I wish that it was not like this as I know that the audio is your first passion, but this is another subject.
The word thank you just lost its power when it comes saying it to you John. This is how I feel learning about the linear amp and upgrading my knowledge about this technology. If I say it 1000 times it would be better but not enough, would 1001 do it ?

Sincerely
Lman

[Faraday88]

Hey John K , I am sailing in the same boat, I do not understand the Amplifier as well, but now with its application on Batteries it has become mandatory to understand it...
Rgds,
Faraday88.

[Faraday88]

Faraday88 and John K,

First of all let me explain Patents and how they offer no protection. You must be able to enforce the patent and the cost to do this is enormous with federal lawyers in court. People love to steal trade secretes especially the Chinese. This has all occurred since the outsourcing of US products, what you get back is another story. It is much better to keep it in house trade secrets and pot things. You will always find people who think they know how to do it better and understand what you did with the item. I have found to pick devices that are very hard to get so when I see them I buy them all out at thousands at a time. I have seen some of the early devices going for 75 dollars each who would spend that kind of money to try and go into production. As I have said before and has been stated I alter things by building my own networks inside things especially TO 3 devices. The point being made here is I select what I want and use it in many different ways. I have no fear that things will be copied by some, but do they want to go into production with it. If people think that you can just start a business today they have another guess coming in the USA today. You will find that a home work shops will not cut the mustard, and yes you find people who make a living on building things others will not do so home workshops work for small runs. The Tracker 5 circuit looks easy to do but it's not as everything must be calculated and tested and re-tested. at any moment in time I can change anything and I have done that. It just so happens that I have in my early days built many circuits like this and we learn by doing, sometimes calculations do not work so things must be changed to work around the problem. The best solution is to build it like I say in the beginning and then once you understand what I did move on with your ideas and see if it works better, if so you have a winner. With old time analog circuits you could have real problems since it is not really taught anymore. An example would be a old DYNACO solid state amplifier, factory select parts people, good luck. This is the reason manufactures put a factory number on the parts. The engineers are smart when it comes to doing little things so factory secrets work the best. Investors demand patents but when things get rough the rough get going and they wont help you defend it. Also when patents are issued it's at the company's expense, if you say the wrong thing you wont own it and the Government will and you wont talk about it. So maybe you understand why I will keep doing it this way.

John K,
Yes it is possible to do what your talking about but what makes the two Amplifiers different is the way the feedback works in the circuits, also the devices are much different since bandwidth is important in the Amplifier, now people have made Amplifiers but not at the power level or current I have shown in the video. Not very many could do that with split supply's as balancing is very critical. The front end of the Amplifier using a BI-FET differential that must be adjusted not to oscillate and the Nobel network must be correct for the bandwidth on the output. Normally the Regulator circuit is working with voltage dividers to achieve a ratio, and can not be exceeded with the audio input. The current is fixed and modulations applied to the current through a diff amp, so what your hearing is an amplifier in DC current mode. Two hooked in an arrangement with emitter followers so both regulators are at constant current along with the emitter followers. Audio is swinging between plus and minus to ground. The input signal is determined by the voltage divider, so it's 1/2 the DC level. Doing it that way Bandwidth can be all the way from 0 Hz to 1 Mhz, since you are limited to the voltage dividers maxim output RMS, is only 5 to 6 watts at 8 ohms and almost 12 watts at 4 ohms. In class A it is louder then the normal class AB amp, so it's 1.4 times louder. I would not make a kit out of this as it is to critical to let people do it and adjust it, but a module could be made if wattage was not important as most critical listening is done at low levels. The devices you see in the video are no longer manufactured anywhere so I would move to plastic select devices. Resistors are wire wound for heat as over 1 amp of current is constant across the devices. About 4 amps per channel so heat sinks are large. I made several of these early on for car audio people but it was limited to 5 watts so 2 ohm speakers were used heat sinks again very large and current was constant from the charging system at about 14 volts at 10 amps and protected by output capacitor.

Thanks a lot John, it was a very Candid opinion from you, I know and understand what kind of effort and pain you have undergone to bring this to the level where it is today, and I also see that you build Hybrid of your Inventions so one is not very clear in figuring out what is what...!!! not many can capable to do this I must say.
I live in India and it is all the more hostile in 'Patent claiming business' and one must do the same trick as what have rightly said. (potting the device is what most of the 'new' devices do here also) I am keen to bring this wondrous technology in this part of the world, I see no parallel Battery Life enhancing technology here in India, and people are eagerly awaiting to see the dawn of some thing which would do that.
Best Regards,
Faraday88.

[John_Koorn]

Thanks John, I'm not an audio guy and don't really understand how amplifiers work but I'm beginning to understand.

So with the Tracker 5, you're dealing with a variable supply depending on the sun. Is the feedback circuit used to regulate the current to the battery as the power input changes, just like in the video? If it does, is the output to the battery constant DC when the battery voltage is at 15.3 or does it oscillate when in desulphation mode?

John K.

[John_Bedini]

factory select parts

Faraday88 and John K,

First of all let me explain Patents and how they offer no protection. You must be able to enforce the patent and the cost to do this is enormous with federal lawyers in court. People love to steal trade secretes especially the Chinese. This has all occurred since the outsourcing of US products, what you get back is another story. It is much better to keep it in house trade secrets and pot things. You will always find people who think they know how to do it better and understand what you did with the item. I have found to pick devices that are very hard to get so when I see them I buy them all out at thousands at a time. I have seen some of the early devices going for 75 dollars each who would spend that kind of money to try and go into production. As I have said before and has been stated I alter things by building my own networks inside things especially TO 3 devices. The point being made here is I select what I want and use it in many different ways. I have no fear that things will be copied by some, but do they want to go into production with it. If people think that you can just start a business today they have another guess coming in the USA today. You will find that a home work shops will not cut the mustard, and yes you find people who make a living on building things others will not do so home workshops work for small runs. The Tracker 5 circuit looks easy to do but it's not as everything must be calculated and tested and re-tested. at any moment in time I can change anything and I have done that. It just so happens that I have in my early days built many circuits like this and we learn by doing, sometimes calculations do not work so things must be changed to work around the problem. The best solution is to build it like I say in the beginning and then once you understand what I did move on with your ideas and see if it works better, if so you have a winner. With old time analog circuits you could have real problems since it is not really taught anymore. An example would be a old DYNACO solid state amplifier, factory select parts people, good luck. This is the reason manufactures put a factory number on the parts. The engineers are smart when it comes to doing little things so factory secrets work the best. Investors demand patents but when things get rough the rough get going and they wont help you defend it. Also when patents are issued it's at the company's expense, if you say the wrong thing you wont own it and the Government will and you wont talk about it. So maybe you understand why I will keep doing it this way.

John K,
Yes it is possible to do what your talking about but what makes the two Amplifiers different is the way the feedback works in the circuits, also the devices are much different since bandwidth is important in the Amplifier, now people have made Amplifiers but not at the power level or current I have shown in the video. Not very many could do that with split supply's as balancing is very critical. The front end of the Amplifier using a BI-FET differential that must be adjusted not to oscillate and the Nobel network must be correct for the bandwidth on the output. Normally the Regulator circuit is working with voltage dividers to achieve a ratio, and can not be exceeded with the audio input. The current is fixed and modulations applied to the current through a diff amp, so what your hearing is an amplifier in DC current mode. Two hooked in an arrangement with emitter followers so both regulators are at constant current along with the emitter followers. Audio is swinging between plus and minus to ground. The input signal is determined by the voltage divider, so it's 1/2 the DC level. Doing it that way Bandwidth can be all the way from 0 Hz to 1 Mhz, since you are limited to the voltage dividers maxim output RMS, is only 5 to 6 watts at 8 ohms and almost 12 watts at 4 ohms. In class A it is louder then the normal class AB amp, so it's 1.4 times louder. I would not make a kit out of this as it is to critical to let people do it and adjust it, but a module could be made if wattage was not important as most critical listening is done at low levels. The devices you see in the video are no longer manufactured anywhere so I would move to plastic select devices. Resistors are wire wound for heat as over 1 amp of current is constant across the devices. About 4 amps per channel so heat sinks are large. I made several of these early on for car audio people but it was limited to 5 watts so 2 ohm speakers were used heat sinks again very large and current was constant from the charging system at about 14 volts at 10 amps and protected by output capacitor.

[John_Koorn]

Fascinating video John.

Would it be fair to say that the Tracker 5 is a "Class A" solar charge controller because it is using the same Linear Regulator circuit?

If so, would it be possible to make a "stereo" Tracker 5 using one solar panel array and two battery banks as the outputs? (Not sure why anyone would want to do that, just curious if it's possible)

John K.

[Faraday88]

Hi John,
Just curious..why is no patent filed on Linear Amplifier to Battery Charging..?
Rgds,
Faraday88.