SG running on 60mA - still charging well

[Brian516]

These are just the results over the last 30 minutes, and I'm going to leave the machine on these settings over night and also see how much the voltage settles when i take it off of charge.

I have it running off of a modified PSU from a PC @ 12.6V, and it is running at 60mA.
8:15 - 12.35
8:23 - 12.36
8:34 - 12.38
8:42 - 12.39
8:48 - 12.40

It doesn't meet any of the recommended build specs... C8 1 7/8 x 7/8 x 3/8 (x4) on a CD size rotor, with two coils at 180*. Coils are 450T #22 and #26, and on the 2nd coil I am only using the #22. MJL21194's - 47 ohm base resistors and 1K cermet pot - and the rest is what is recommended on the basic SG circuitry. Oh, and I am charging a 12V 7Ah battery that started at 12.22V. (I ran it for a bit before I tuned it to it's current settings. I will measure the resistance on the 1K pot when I shut it off tomorrow....

Is this something I should be excited about? Or is this fairly typical? I read on the fight-4-truth Bedini notes that I printed off that Erwin was happy about having his system run at 2.5A...

[min2oly]

These are just the results over the last 30 minutes, and I'm going to leave the machine on these settings over night and also see how much the voltage settles when i take it off of charge.

I have it running off of a modified PSU from a PC @ 12.6V, and it is running at 60mA.
8:15 - 12.35
8:23 - 12.36
8:34 - 12.38
8:42 - 12.39
8:48 - 12.40

It doesn't meet any of the recommended build specs... C8 1 7/8 x 7/8 x 3/8 (x4) on a CD size rotor, with two coils at 180*. Coils are 450T #22 and #26, and on the 2nd coil I am only using the #22. MJL21194's - 47 ohm base resistors and 1K cermet pot - and the rest is what is recommended on the basic SG circuitry. Oh, and I am charging a 12V 7Ah battery that started at 12.22V. (I ran it for a bit before I tuned it to it's current settings. I will measure the resistance on the 1K pot when I shut it off tomorrow....

Is this something I should be excited about? Or is this fairly typical? I read on the fight-4-truth Bedini notes that I printed off that Erwin was happy about having his system run at 2.5A...

What is the core diameter and length?
did you play around much with magnet spacing?
Sounds like a good first run. is this your first build?
Do you have a method of knowing how many spikes/magnet pass you are getting?
Sorry for all the questions. I like the sound of your build, you should post some pics.
Thanks for sharing.
Patrick A.

[Brian516]

What is the core diameter and length?
did you play around much with magnet spacing?
Sounds like a good first run. is this your first build?
Do you have a method of knowing how many spikes/magnet pass you are getting?
Sorry for all the questions. I like the sound of your build, you should post some pics.
Thanks for sharing.
Patrick A.

The spools are 1 3/4" Tall x 1 5/8", and the wires on it come to about 1 1/8" Diameter. the cores are made from rebar tie wire and are 7/16" Diameter, 2 1/4" long with the excess out the back.

On the current machine, I have not messed with the magnet spacing much at all. I set the coils only a few MM away from the closest point of the passing magnets. I did make it adjustable though, so I most likely will try everything that I can on this current setup before I start changing things.

This is not my first build, but I am definitely still a beginner. I'm trying to learn and absorb as much knowledge as I can about every aspect of electronics and electromagnetism.....
However, I am limited on funds temporarily, so I have been disassembling previous builds to make new ones. As I learn more, I will continue to design some permanent builds from the knowledge I obtain.

I do not have a method for measuring the spikes.. but I would like to. Can you point me in the right direction so I can find out how to do so?
---One thing I have noticed is that because of the resistance in my Meter, when I connect it to measure the Current, it slows down the machine a little and therefore drops the Current measurement just a little, hence why I have added about 6mA to the Meter's reading.

Thanks for your interest in my project! I'm antsy to get some ideas from other people, since no two minds are the same!

More results:
8:48 - 12.40
9:51 - 12.42
11:20 - 12.45
12:49AM - 12.46
12:12PM - 12.57
1:00 - 12.58
1:27 - 12.59

[min2oly]

The spools are 1 3/4" Tall x 1 5/8", and the wires on it come to about 1 1/8" Diameter. the cores are made from rebar tie wire and are 7/16" Diameter, 2 1/4" long with the excess out the back.

On the current machine, I have not messed with the magnet spacing much at all. I set the coils only a few MM away from the closest point of the passing magnets. I did make it adjustable though, so I most likely will try everything that I can on this current setup before I start changing things.

This is not my first build, but I am definitely still a beginner. I'm trying to learn and absorb as much knowledge as I can about every aspect of electronics and electromagnetism.....
However, I am limited on funds temporarily, so I have been disassembling previous builds to make new ones. As I learn more, I will continue to design some permanent builds from the knowledge I obtain.

I do not have a method for measuring the spikes.. but I would like to. Can you point me in the right direction so I can find out how to do so?
---One thing I have noticed is that because of the resistance in my Meter, when I connect it to measure the Current, it slows down the machine a little and therefore drops the Current measurement just a little, hence why I have added about 6mA to the Meter's reading.

Thanks for your interest in my project! I'm antsy to get some ideas from other people, since no two minds are the same!

More results:
8:48 - 12.40
9:51 - 12.42
11:20 - 12.45
12:49AM - 12.46
12:12PM - 12.57
1:00 - 12.58
1:27 - 12.59


[ATTACH=CONFIG]4410[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4409[/ATTACH]

I like the dimensions on this build.
definitely once you have the amp draw measurements, remove the meter so it does not get any back spikes and ruined.
have you ever held the coil in your hand while it is running?
on a build this small it was a very educating experience, for me anyway. For anyone who has not, monitor the amp draw and speed vs charging and how the coil feels relative to the distance from the wheel. feel free to move the coil, not only closer and farther from the magnet, but also side to side. the coil is usually perpendicular to the wheel, turn it slowly parallel. if the wheel does not continue to rotate, reverse the coil connections or rotate the coil. remember that coil is a magnet that is only on when the magnet passes, it's pretty cool to feel how the N and S are interacting... It's ok if you leave one coil in place for this. This is all just very interesting and fun things to do with a smaller wheel.

this won't let you see how large the spikes are, but you can see how many spikes you are getting per magnet pass:

22/26 awg with that core size should let you get all the way down to one spike if your wheel has little to no drag. I might have gone with 24awg for the trigger and wind 3 full passes up and down the spool prior to starting in with the 22awg. I think your 26 will be fine though.

I have always had better charging with low RPM and 2 spikes there are many ways to take the rpm down. This is contrary to Aaron and Peter's last book however, so maybe I'm doing something wrong :-)

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Patrick,

.....................I have always had better charging with low RPM and 2 spikes there are many ways to take the rpm down. This is contrary to Aaron and Peter's last book however, so maybe I'm doing something wrong :-)

I also get better charging at lower RPM and two spikes. Genny coils put out more voltage at the higher RPM but the charging from the main coil collapse is slower at only one spike for me as well.

[Brian516]

I have not held the coil in my hand on this build. I most certainly will try that with my 2nd coil, and when I build another one, I will do it with only one coil! I did notice when I moved the coil around on one of my previous builds, it would change the timing and either speed up or slow down the rotor, but at that time I only had one meter (the Fluke that needs new fuses - couldn't measure current!!) and couldn't monitor input and output simultaneously... Now I have several meters, but the only analog I have is a cheap walmart one that has crappy range settings. I do not have a scope yet, either.

The coils are fairly small, and I still have more 22awg, so maybe I shall scrounge up some 24awg somewhere and make a coil to your specs, with the trigger wire wound as you stated.

On another note, I was messing around and noticed that one of my 2 transistors was not firing (neon not lighting with no charge batt) so I got to inspecting, and realized that the power wire was broken on my top coil!! So all this time I have really just been running a SSG with a coil adding drag up top!!! I fixed it, and am currently messing around with the base resistances and seeing what else I can do. I was kind of baffled before when my unused trigger wire was only giving me 5V output.. now I know!! Any ideas on what to do with it? Add it in with the 1st trigger? Match the resistance to the first and add a second pot? Run it into a rectifier and cap dump it, or direct return it? Do nothing? All of the above???

Thanks for the vid, though! now I am going to play around a bit and see what I find out....

[Brian516]

Oh, yes.... I would like to add the final results that I got before I shut it off and fixed the 2nd coil:

1:27 - 12.59
5:31 - 12.64
7:28 - 12.65
Powered down the machine and let the battery settle for an hour and a half....
9:05 - 12.50

If you are still interested, I will share the results with you now that I have fixed the 2nd coil, and I will do it with the same battery, but will discharge it to below 12V.
Is there anything specific you would like me to do or try?

[min2oly]

Hi Gary, nice to hear I'm not the only one...

Hi Brian, just rethinking my statement that it would be ok to hold one coil in your hand while the other is mounted to the energizer. If possible you might want to try with only one coil firing first, the one with the trigger winding, or your timing on the mounted coil will be off as you move the other one around.

This coil in the hand exercise can be done with only one meter. first place it on the input, move the coil around take good notes on where the increase in draw is, then place the meter on the battery to monitor the voltage, take good notes and compare the two. You're trying to feel the "bubble", the magnetic field between the magnet and the coil. It will be different if in attraction mode vs repulsion. I'm a tactile learner so this was extremely helpful for me. I also put my hand right on the wheel to feel the speed and torque (kids, don't try this at home).


I would not take your battery below 12.20V and try getting it to 14.5V once you have all the timing and adjustments settled enough to where you want to solder everything together... that breadboard is stealing some of the energy.

I think I can speak for anyone reading :-) we all like to hear about results, please post. If you are running 60mA with one coil, I would not add anymore winds. I've been able to charge a 10Ah battery very nicely with one small coil of 22awg. how many feet would you guess are on there?

if the second trigger wire is on the same coil, try putting them in parallel, otherwise I would leave it as is. No sense in spinning your wheels if your wheel is already spinning (ooooo, that was gooood)

Hope some of this helps, don't hesitate to ask if not me, someone else will answer.
KR - Patrick A.

[Tachyon Catcher]

I have always had better charging with low RPM and 2 spikes there are many ways to take the rpm down.

Hi Patrick,
Just how do you take the RPM down without adding friction, increasing rotor size, or reducing duty cycle? I have noticed a optimal RPM band where the charging is crazy, but the rotor always wants to spin faster when it hits this optimal band. Or maybe its a resonance thing and the increased power causes the rotor to spin faster causing everything to change. It has haunted me for nearly 5 years now. I have even played with phasing with interesting results, but not the solution. A bit off topic so I apologize and will say no more about this in this thread.
Thanks,
Randy

[Brian516]

Patrick -

Thanks for filling me in on how to find out how many pulses per magnet pass I'm getting! That is a really neat trick! Sorry it took me so long to do it!
For ease of visibility, I printed off a black piece of paper, cut it out to fit, and glued it to the CD that is the side of my rotor, and put 4 little slivers of reflective silver tape on it.

I set the machine back up exactly how I had it before, and used the LED trick to measure the pulses.... and I'm getting 10 pulses per magnet pass! It was a bit of a pain to try and count them, but I managed!
I'm most definitely going to thoroughly document the machine in it's current config before I go changing it again..... Later on I will most likely build it again in a more permanent manner, but right now I need to use the stand/magnets/transistors that I have for further testing. I learn best the same way that you do, and reading just doesn't cut it when I can't get the hands-on experience to go with it.

Once I start to remove my current coils I will do the coil-in-hand experiment before I install my newly wound 4-filar + 2 trigger coil. (2 triggers so I can also experiment with the bipolar sequential) Speaking of - I know it's meant for a window motor, but do you see any issues with experimenting with that circuit on my current setup?

I'm going to guess that there is approx 90-100 ft per coil, since I started with 500 ft, wound two coils, and by weight, I have 300 feet left...

Quick question - when making your own spools, what kind of glue do you use? the stuff I have tried just doesn't seem to hold all that well.

Thanks!! -Brian

[Brian516]

turned it up to about 80mA and am now getting 12-13 pulses per pass! I'm really thrilled that I now know how to measure them til I can get a 'scope! Thanks!!!

[Brian516]

Another Question for you, Patrick -

I have noticed that when I turn my resistance down, of course it speeds up and I get fewer pulses, but I noticed that the lines indicating the pulses get wider and wider....
Does this signify getting stronger pulses? If so, does that mean higher voltage pulses, longer duration pulses, more current in the pulses(unlikely, since it's a very-low-current charging 'energizer'), or something else? This would make sense to me, considering that even though I get fewer pulses when I turn the machine up, the battery voltage climbs quite rapidly...

Example, my results:

Start:
7:52 - 12.60V (running high, not tuned down to the 60mA yet)
8:00 - 12.74V (now tuned down to 63mA)
8:24 - 12.82V - 63mA - 10PPP (Pulses Per Pass)
8:35 - 12.85V - 85mA - 12-13PPP
8:40 - 12.91V - 127mA - 9-10PPP
8:45 - 12.93V - 154mA - 8-9PPP
8:47 - 12.98V - 204mA - 3-4PPP
8:49 - 13.02V - 266mA - 2-3PPP
8:54 - 13.05V - 283mA - 3PPP
9:03 - 13.08V - 283mA - 3PPP
[EDIT] When I added the 2nd transistor, keeping the rest of the config the same, adding a 47ohm base resistor with the 2nd transistor, these are the results:
9:13 - 13.08V - 341mA - 4PPP (still climbing - I was impatient for results!)
9:15 - 13.10V - 356mA - 4PPP
9:16 - 13.12V - 368mA
9:22 - 13.14V - 380mA (tuned in - any further up I lose a pulse and voltage drops off)
I am leaving it as-is overnight and we shall see our results in the morning!!!
[END EDIT]

As the mA increased and the pulse count decreased, the line width got wider and wider. When I was getting 10PPP the lines we so thin that they were pretty hard to count... looked to be less than 1mm wide, but at 3PPP the lines look to be 1/4" wide.

Thanks for all of your help, advice, and feedback!
-Brian

[Brian516]

More results:

9:41PM - 13.17
1:15AM - 13.32
9:05AM - 14.37
11:40AM - 15.11
12:35PM - 15.21
1:24PM - 15.33
(Turned off and removed battery)
1:53 - 13.25 (Settled)

Is it supposed to drop back down this much? Or is this because it is a fairly new battery still and needs a lot more conditioning?

-Brian

[min2oly]

Patrick -

Thanks for filling me in on how to find out how many pulses per magnet pass I'm getting! That is a really neat trick! Sorry it took me so long to do it!
For ease of visibility, I printed off a black piece of paper, cut it out to fit, and glued it to the CD that is the side of my rotor, and put 4 little slivers of reflective silver tape on it.

I set the machine back up exactly how I had it before, and used the LED trick to measure the pulses.... and I'm getting 10 pulses per magnet pass! It was a bit of a pain to try and count them, but I managed!
I'm most definitely going to thoroughly document the machine in it's current config before I go changing it again..... Later on I will most likely build it again in a more permanent manner, but right now I need to use the stand/magnets/transistors that I have for further testing. I learn best the same way that you do, and reading just doesn't cut it when I can't get the hands-on experience to go with it.

Once I start to remove my current coils I will do the coil-in-hand experiment before I install my newly wound 4-filar + 2 trigger coil. (2 triggers so I can also experiment with the bipolar sequential) Speaking of - I know it's meant for a window motor, but do you see any issues with experimenting with that circuit on my current setup?

I'm going to guess that there is approx 90-100 ft per coil, since I started with 500 ft, wound two coils, and by weight, I have 300 feet left...

Quick question - when making your own spools, what kind of glue do you use? the stuff I have tried just doesn't seem to hold all that well.

Thanks!! -Brian

I like the black paper idea! Makes it clean. 10 pulses... I definitely like your idea of documenting before making any changes. you never know when you might have to use something you did before. I might try to get those spikes down a bit. how is the free spin of that rotor, is it true, etc... this could be slowing the rotor a bit. If you think your rotor is fine, after you document, I might drop the resistance to the base down maybe 10 ohm base resistors. Your amp draw is going to go up...

2 triggers - I would love to read about it, especially your ideas on how to implement them and how they work out. along those lines, try placing them in parallel as well as other things you already have planned...

90' sounds good, you should have no problem getting to 1 pulse, then back off to more as you like. either the coil is too close to the magnet or the rotor will not spin fast enough.

If the spool is large, I use epoxy to get it to stick. The little ones, I used hot glue I don't load the front of the coil too tight with too much wire on those. Some of my best coils are almost V shaped at the point so there is less interference between wire and magnet. I guess one could just push the core forward a bit as well.
Kind Regards,
patrick A.

[min2oly]

More results:

9:41PM - 13.17
1:15AM - 13.32
9:05AM - 14.37
11:40AM - 15.11
12:35PM - 15.21
1:24PM - 15.33
(Turned off and removed battery)
1:53 - 13.25 (Settled)

Is it supposed to drop back down this much? Or is this because it is a fairly new battery still and needs a lot more conditioning?

-Brian

13.25 settled is actually very high for a SLAB.
Your machine is charging very nicely with very little input! Maybe that battery likes the 10 spikes!

I may have missed it, what is your input now with the 2 coils?
I'm totally blind, I see your notes now.

and what is the Amp hour rating of that battery?
oops---- 12V 7Ah ---- got it.
Thanks,
Patrick