SG running on 60mA - still charging well

[min2oly]

Another Question for you, Patrick -

I have noticed that when I turn my resistance down, of course it speeds up and I get fewer pulses, but I noticed that the lines indicating the pulses get wider and wider....
Does this signify getting stronger pulses? If so, does that mean higher voltage pulses, longer duration pulses, more current in the pulses(unlikely, since it's a very-low-current charging 'energizer'), or something else? This would make sense to me, considering that even though I get fewer pulses when I turn the machine up, the battery voltage climbs quite rapidly...

Example, my results:

Start:
7:52 - 12.60V (running high, not tuned down to the 60mA yet)
8:00 - 12.74V (now tuned down to 63mA)
8:24 - 12.82V - 63mA - 10PPP (Pulses Per Pass)
8:35 - 12.85V - 85mA - 12-13PPP
8:40 - 12.91V - 127mA - 9-10PPP
8:45 - 12.93V - 154mA - 8-9PPP
8:47 - 12.98V - 204mA - 3-4PPP
8:49 - 13.02V - 266mA - 2-3PPP
8:54 - 13.05V - 283mA - 3PPP
9:03 - 13.08V - 283mA - 3PPP
[EDIT] When I added the 2nd transistor, keeping the rest of the config the same, adding a 47ohm base resistor with the 2nd transistor, these are the results:
9:13 - 13.08V - 341mA - 4PPP (still climbing - I was impatient for results!)
9:15 - 13.10V - 356mA - 4PPP
9:16 - 13.12V - 368mA
9:22 - 13.14V - 380mA (tuned in - any further up I lose a pulse and voltage drops off)
I am leaving it as-is overnight and we shall see our results in the morning!!!
[END EDIT]

As the mA increased and the pulse count decreased, the line width got wider and wider. When I was getting 10PPP the lines we so thin that they were pretty hard to count... looked to be less than 1mm wide, but at 3PPP the lines look to be 1/4" wide.

Thanks for all of your help, advice, and feedback!
-Brian

So what's happening here...
when you are getting multiple spikes, that is the transistor literally shutting off then turning back on again each time... this is because the magnet has not finished passing the coil core. the emitter base diode is forcing the transistor to shut off and the magnet is forcing the transistor to turn back on. The faster the wheel turns the stronger the current to the base of the transistor is, so the magnet starts winning the battle and keeping the transistor open longer... and yes, more current consumption.

There are several ways to combat this. smaller core, smaller magnets or superpole magnets glued together. also.......... back the coil off/away from the magnet, away from the wheel. there are many things to be balanced here, each one of these changes will affect charging as well. Your good notes and documentation will be crucial to your journey. I like the dimensions you have, as long as your wheel is able to spin fast enough I think backing the coil off is the best place to start. Sounds like you have a handle on things though. please continue to post. Many people will benefit from your experiences.
KR - Patrick A.

[Brian516]

how is the free spin of that rotor, is it true, etc... this could be slowing the rotor a bit. If you think your rotor is fine, after you document, I might drop the resistance to the base down maybe 10 ohm base resistors. Your amp draw is going to go up...

My shaft is a stainless roller rod out of an InkJet printer, which happened to fit perfectly with skateboard bearings... I am using the absolute highest quality bearings I could get, and my rotor is as balanced as one can get it without a balancing machine, so I'm as close to free-spinning as it gets with bearings! I need to order more 3W resistors, but for now I will see what I have in my 'salvage collection' and give it a try. I just added two magnets into my rotor, so now the spacing is right at two magnet widths. Before I swap my current coils for my new, larger coil I will give it a run before changing the circuit and see what happens for a half hour or so, then adjust coil-magnet spacing and run, then drop base resistance and run.

Some of my best coils are almost V shaped at the point so there is less interference between wire and magnet. I guess one could just push the core forward a bit as well.

I will definitely have to try this... I'm going to do a quick design for a much smaller platform soon and try a whole bunch of different things. Messing with the shape of the coils will most certainly be one of them now that you mention it! I really want to try Muller coils on a PMH style core, also.

13.25 settled is actually very high for a SLAB.
Your machine is charging very nicely with very little input! Maybe that battery likes the 10 spikes!

Before I left it running overnight, I actually tuned it down to 4 Pulses per magnet pass and left it. It was 3 before I added in the 2nd transistor with the top (180 degrees away) coil. I didn't change the resistance at all when I added that in, either.

and what is the Amp hour rating of that battery?
oops---- 12V 7Ah ---- got it.

Actually, my notes were incorrect on that point.... the battery I was charging was a 12V 5Ah Enercell (radioshack) battery that I bought about a week ago. I'm pretty sure that I've only ran it down to 12V twice before I ran it on this setup.

So what's happening here...
when you are getting multiple spikes, that is the transistor literally shutting off then turning back on again each time... this is because the magnet has not finished passing the coil core. the emitter base diode is forcing the transistor to shut off and the magnet is forcing the transistor to turn back on. The faster the wheel turns the stronger the current to the base of the transistor is, so the magnet starts winning the battle and keeping the transistor open longer... and yes, more current consumption.

There are several ways to combat this. smaller core, smaller magnets or superpole magnets glued together. also.......... back the coil off/away from the magnet, away from the wheel. there are many things to be balanced here, each one of these changes will affect charging as well. Your good notes and documentation will be crucial to your journey. I like the dimensions you have, as long as your wheel is able to spin fast enough I think backing the coil off is the best place to start. Sounds like you have a handle on things though. please continue to post. Many people will benefit from your experiences.
KR - Patrick A.

Thank you - I actually really needed that simplified explanation of what is going on in the circuits of a pulse motor!!! Now that I finally understand that, I can really picture what is happening in the circuits when I am meddling with these machines! I know it gets more complicated than that, but that is what I needed to understand so I can expand my knowledge of pulse motors.

Your feedback and ideas are invaluable to my learning experience, and I will most definitely continue to post my test results and ideas. I'm sure this is going to end up splitting off into multiple threads/topics in the future.

-Brian

[Brian516]

I need to find someone I can borrow a tachometer from!! This thing's gotta be pushin really close to 10,000 RPM on just over 1amp!! I was only getting 1 pulse per pass then, but myyyyyyyyy gooooodness!!!

[AlvaroHN]

Hi Brian, I bought a tachometer on ebay from a china seller, for US$ 18, veeeeeery cheap, the only problem is that the shipping takes like a month.

[Tom C]

the half bipolar circuit inductively triggered will work just fine on an SG style coil. it wont add much torque to it, but it will function.

Tom C

[Brian516]

I know this is really, really off topic here, but:
I'm really itching to learn more about how everything works... such as electromagnetism, induction, etc etc.. the very basics of it all. I need to build a solid base of knowledge in order to advance and I'm kind of struggling here. I keep jumping around from thing to thing and I'm getting nowhere fast. I have no problem building things that other people have given the specs and schematics for, but I have no base on which to be able to design and build my own circuits with.... I started with reading the 'Paul Rosenberg' book "Basic Electronics" so I can understand how components function (not finished yet). Anyone have any good recommendations? It can be books or videos, but I'm looking for the absolute best, most straight-forward stuff that isn't full of disinformation like classical electrical engineering texts and videos. In a way I am glad that I didn't go to college for electrical engineering or I would have a whole lot of info to forget right about now.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated!!
-Brian

[Brian516]

I've made some modifications to my machine. First of all, I added two more magnets, so now I have a total of 6. There is exactly two magnet widths between each pair. I also added a "flywheel" to the end of my driveshaft, which is actually a rotor that I am going to be using to run some tests with. It is a stack of CD's with 8 ring magnets from speakers glued on edge, alternating poles. I balanced it with a lawnmower blade balance, which I now need to do with my main rotor because it developed a little bit of a vibration after I added the other two mags. The vibration isn't so bad, so I will probably wait until tomorrow, since tonight I want to mess around a little with cap dump setups that aren't isolated from the main circuit. I haven't decided yet, but I might design and build a cam/commutator setup for the machine that is either the same as, or similar to, the designs in Erwin Badertscher's "Fight-4-Truth" Bedini notes. Anyway, back on topic....

After doing these modifications I ran the machine a bit, charging the 12V 7Ah Japanese motor-scooter battery. I am using the same modified CPU PSU to run the machine, which puts out a constant 12.48V.

Before starting, my charge battery was at 12.19V

9:00PM - 12.19V
9:18PM - 12.39V - 398mA
9:33PM - 12.43V
12:15AM - 12.90V
[Turned machine off and backed my coils off to 1/4" gap between coil/core and magnets. This is when I balanced my flywheel...]
12:57PM - 12.52V - 590mA (not tuned yet)
1:15AM - 12.57V - 610mA - 4 Pulses per magnet pass
11:59AM - 13.20V
3:37PM - 13.45V
4:04PM - 13.47V
[Turned machine off and moved the coils closer to the magnets - 0.129" gap]
4:08PM - 13.16V (machine still off - battery settling some)
4:22PM - 13.50V - 687mA - 4PPP
4:29PM - 13.56V - 813mA - 3PPP
4:33PM - 13.59V (Jumped u 30mA as soon as I removed the meter measuring Current)
6:24PM - 14.06V
10:06PM - 15.39V
10:30PM - 15.47V
11:11PM - 15.61V

9:20AM - 13.323V SETTLED OVERNIGHT

It seems as though my machine really likes that gap and 3 Pulses per pass! I tried to tune it to 2 Pulses, but it runs way faster than I want it to when I get it to that point. Like I said I still need to balance my main rotor... which I don't feel like doing now. I can get it running up to full speed without the vibration being horrible, but I'm still not happy with it.... what can I say, I'm a bit of a perfectionist! I can't wait til I can go and buy a pair of matching 12V batteries so I can actually do some real COP calculations! I have the printout of the "Bedini Monopole 3 Group Experiment" - which is extremely helpful in many ways!

[Brian516]

I tried running the same machine on 6V 4.5Ah batteries. The Primary 6V was charged on the same setup via the CPU PSU at 12.48V, but had been sitting for over 48 hours.
It seemed to run well at first, but I guess overnight as the primary voltage dropped, it steadily lost efficiency since the settings had changed and needed to be re-tuned. I wonder if there is a way to automatically adjust the base resistance in sync with the primary battery as it loses voltage? There must be a way, but I'm wondering if that would consume so much energy off the machine that it would be inefficient and therefore not practical? Maybe if the circuit is ran off of a separate battery? I'll have to do some thread-surfing and duckduckgo.com searching..... but as for now, it's nowhere near one of my priorities. Just an idea to put on the list of things to try......

Well here are the results from the 6V 4.5Ah run:
Primary battery: 6V 4.5Ah Utilitech battery from Lowes : 6.36V
Charge battery: 6V 4.5Ah Utilitech battery from Lowes : 6.149V

Primary Charge Current Time Pulses
6.36V 6.149V 1:22AM
6.21V 6.195V 409mA 1:29AM 3 PPP
6.22V 6.209V 1:32AM "
5.764V 6.455V 9:27AM
5.906 6.348V 9:45AM

I really need to get some independent ammeters and wouldn't mind some voltmeters as well so that I can just leave them on the machine. that way I don't have any fluctuation when I remove my analog multimeter from the machine, and can get constant, steady readings. I obviously didn't reconnect my meter and measure the mA after I had set up the machine to where I wanted it last night, but looking back on it, it would have been nice to know, especially this morning when I did my last voltage measurement before shutting off the machine..... oh well, now I know.

This machine just doesn't seem to be any good running on 6V.... Maybe it would work better with a primary battery that has been conditioned some more, above 7V, and possibly using dump charging instead of pulse. I believe I am going to attempt to make some LiFePO4 cells sometime if I can get my hands on the materials I need, just for kicks. I am definitely going to attempt some Nickel Iron batteries soon, once I manage to get some Nickel Oxide to turn into Nickel Hydroxide. I'm no chemist, but youtube is one fantastic resource!! HAHA Good ol' Robert Murray-Smith, the kitchen chemist, will show me the way to anything I may need to do when it comes to chemistry.

Well, it's back to my Corner Electronics Lab for some experimentation!!!

Good day to all, Brian

[Brian516]

Hi Brian, I bought a tachometer on ebay from a china seller, for US$ 18, veeeeeery cheap, the only problem is that the shipping takes like a month.

Hey there, Alvaro,

Thank you for the info!
Sounds like one heck of a good price! Does that include the shipping? I'd hope so if it takes a month!
What is the quality like? Does it feel nice and sturdy like it will last? Is it giving you stable measurements?
Most of all, are you happy with it?
Sorry for all of the questions, I just want to make sure that I buy one that is going to last me quite a while, and gives me precise and accurate measurements.

Thank you,
Brian

[AlvaroHN]

Hey there, Alvaro,

Thank you for the info!
Sounds like one heck of a good price! Does that include the shipping? I'd hope so if it takes a month!
What is the quality like? Does it feel nice and sturdy like it will last? Is it giving you stable measurements?
Most of all, are you happy with it?
Sorry for all of the questions, I just want to make sure that I buy one that is going to last me quite a while, and gives me precise and accurate measurements.

Thank you,
Brian

The shipping was US$ 1,5. it took 1 month to Uruguay where I live, but probably it would take less time for you I don't know where you live but all places take less time than Uruguay...

The quality is ok, is not the best tachometer in the world, but it works perfectly, the measurements are perfect, it reads from 2 rpm to 99999 and the resolution is 0,1 rpm.

And yes! I am very happy with it.

Here is the link of the one I bought --> http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-Phot...item51b1bfb669


best,

Alvaro

[min2oly]

for Auto tune, try John Bedini's ingenious self "servo the load" bulb.
For that build I would use the grain of wheat bulb or something similar.

It's fun to watch the speed, but your $$'s will be better spent on a nice
large-ish 15Ah minimum flooded lead acid battery. Then maybe one more voltmeter
so you can watch things simultaneously, remember to take the meters off
during the runs, and let's get those ckts off the bread board with some thick
cables going from the diode to your charge battery. you can solder it up so you can
swap coils in and out, the input is not AS particular as the output is.

I like the LiFePO4's on the front end only because they hold their top voltage longer which
makes for good charging, but I do not like them on the back end as much. IMHO take all
I say with a grain of salt, there are much more experienced members here - I do not mind
at all if you jump in and disagree, add on, or modify anything I say...
KR - Patrick

[Brian516]

She's all done up nice and pretty like and ready to go for a spin.......

What I didn't solder, I tinned and overlapped the connections. For now I only have room for one more transistor, which I have the power wire for, but I decided to leave open for right now so I can do some cap dump experiments off of the main coil instead of only having the slave coils to do it with. Tonight and tomorrow: cap dumps.

[Brian516]

Oh, I almost forgot, and how could I possibly?!??

I spent quite a while balancing my main rotor since it's two completely separate stacks of CD's that are spaced about an inch apart.....
Since I find it so amusing, maybe you will as well:

[min2oly]

She's all done up nice and pretty like and ready to go for a spin.......

What I didn't solder, I tinned and overlapped the connections. For now I only have room for one more transistor, which I have the power wire for, but I decided to leave open for right now so I can do some cap dump experiments off of the main coil instead of only having the slave coils to do it with. Tonight and tomorrow: cap dumps.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4418[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4419[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]4420[/ATTACH]

So far so good - say, after seeing your pictures I had to go back down and look up the dimensions of your magnets. My brain registered them wrong. I've been talking this whole time like they were 1/2 inch wide when in fact they are 7/8" wide. Don't change them for my sake though. You noted earlier that the CORE of your spool is 7/16" Diameter. I'm just double checking, from the picture it looks bigger. So it is less than 1/2" right?

If however, you ever put another wheel together (I would not take this one apart) use 1/2" wide magnets and see the difference. It looks like you might even be able to put them on the same shaft there. Then you could move the coil from one to the other "on the fly" by hand so you can see (using volt meters) and feel the difference...

Also, side note they will behave very different depending on if you are in normal radiant charging mode or Neg to Neg charging mode. Any more experienced members care to lay that out...

Brian - that looks like a 1/2 inch rod for the shaft, cd's have a 5/8" hole, did you use a rubber gasket of some sort to center and make up the difference or is the shaft also 5/8"?

Peace Out...
Patrick A.

[min2oly]

Oh, I almost forgot, and how could I possibly?!??

I spent quite a while balancing my main rotor since it's two completely separate stacks of CD's that are spaced about an inch apart.....
Since I find it so amusing, maybe you will as well:

[ATTACH=CONFIG]4421[/ATTACH]

I would love to watch a vid of your technique used to balance that out.
nice work!
Patrick A.