SG running on 60mA - still charging well

[Brian516]

So far so good - say, after seeing your pictures I had to go back down and look up the dimensions of your magnets. My brain registered them wrong. I've been talking this whole time like they were 1/2 inch wide when in fact they are 7/8" wide. Don't change them for my sake though. You noted earlier that the CORE of your spool is 7/16" Diameter. I'm just double checking, from the picture it looks bigger. So it is less than 1/2" right?

The core on my newer coil is just about 3/4" The old coils that I have (which I have 3 of) are 7/16" diameter cores. I really want to get some R60 welding rod to use instead of the soft iron rebar tie wire I'm currently using. Should I remove the core of the coil I'm currently using and "sleeve it" so that I have a smaller core? If I do that, there is going to be a bigger gap between the core and the wire, and it will be filled with PVC.

If however, you ever put another wheel together (I would not take this one apart) use 1/2" wide magnets and see the difference. It looks like you might even be able to put them on the same shaft there. Then you could move the coil from one to the other "on the fly" by hand so you can see (using volt meters) and feel the difference...

Is what you are getting at that my cores should be just a little smaller than the width of my magnets? Once I have some money to spare (trying to get caught up right now ) I will buy some more magnets that are a different size, and possibly shape. I'm looking into the benefits of using round, thicker magnets... What do you think of the idea of sandwiching a thin neo magnet between two C8 ferrites, or putting the neo behind the ferrite magnets?

Also, side note they will behave very different depending on if you are in normal radiant charging mode or Neg to Neg charging mode. Any more experienced members care to lay that out...

By neg to neg charging mode, are you speaking of the inverted generator setup? I haven't messed with any of that yet, but I want to for sure...
I also have a couple schematics where it's positive to positive....

I'm also trying to process the whole cap-dump setup... and am wondering, do I have to remove the charge battery from it's standard position in order to be able to get enough "juice" out of the generator coil (1 - on same spool; 2 - isolated as load coil ) in order to be able to do anything with it? In my current setup, (the standard SG) When I hook up my gen coils to separate BR's (with or without a cap across the DC side) and hook a meter to it, I can barely get 5 volts unless I crank the speed all the way up, and even then I still don't get very much...

Brian - that looks like a 1/2 inch rod for the shaft, cd's have a 5/8" hole, did you use a rubber gasket of some sort to center and make up the difference or is the shaft also 5/8"?

It's 5/16" rod, and I used the rubber paper-gripping rollers that were on it when I removed it from the printer. I squeezed them into the holes of the cd's and hot glued around the edges. I had to use some oil to lube them up to get them on the shaft. They fit quite nicely, actually.

Sorry for all of the complete amateur questions.....

Thanks for all your help!!
Brian

[Brian516]

I would love to watch a vid of your technique used to balance that out.
nice work!
Patrick A.

Patrick,

Unfortunately I do not have a working video camera right now, but as soon as I get one I will def be making vids! They are so much more informative...

Brian

[Brian516]

My main setup, before the modifications, is the "Monopole Mechanical Oscillator with SSG circuit" without the alternating polarity magnets, or the top coil and switches. I am wondering if, do I need to have a much higher resistance in a generator coil to get more volts out of it? The diagram I have says 33.4ohms for that coil...

Ok, well here are some quick results for what I've been messing around with:
At first I was running it with my 12V 7Ah battery, and charging the 12V 5Ah one. I don't think I left the 7Ah sit long enough after charging it on the machine before I put it on primary... so my results were poo and aren't worth sharing. Plus I kept changing the resistance constantly soooo... yeah.

Last night/morning I hooked it up to the PSU @ 12.48V and ran it. My coil-magnet gap is 0.185"

5Ah mA Time Pulses
12.728V 469mA 2:08AM 2
13.148 10:28AM
13.326 713mA 10:34 2
My current reading would not keep anywhere near steady, it kept rapidly and erratically fluctuating...
Stopped the machine and paralleled the two trigger wires
12.920 10:39 (machine off)
13.450 - 13.465 12:13PM Batt voltage not steady... I guess I'm seeing the effect of the pulses from the machine, since I have some nice, thick, juicy wire running to it...
13.560 - 13.567 12.58
13.561 - 13.579 1:11
Attempted your and lasersaber's cap and diode mod - with 1n5408 and 400V .15j tantalum - didn't work out very well with those, so I swapped them for the 1n4007 and 100WV 2.7mfd bipolar cap, and it seems to work better. However, instead of getting nice crisp pulses that I can see with the LED trick, I have one consistent blur of silver tape. I guess that is the smoothing effect of the cap?
13.323 1:25 (machine off)
13.429 - 13.439 2:15
Adjusted resistance - Previously it was still on the same setting I had it on that gave me 713mA and 2 pulses per pass
13.390 - 13.400 460mA 2:19
13.409 2:32
13.429 2:56
[13.479 3:41]

At this point it seems like I am getting a little less than 1mA per minute. I don't have enough experience to know how good that is at 460mA on a 5Ah battery, but at this rate, 12 hours of charging would only give me 600mV. I'm going to pull off the cap and diode mod and swap my two small trigger wires for the open power wire. Something tells me that my machine will run a whole lot better like that, and if I'm right, I can use those two smaller wires to power a cap dump, and/or use some of my 3 smaller coils for it.

Patrick - can you give me the values/numbers for the components for the mosfet/transformer cap dump circuit that you posted ( i think in the inverted gen mode thread) ... you know, the one that has the cap dump circuit tied in to the main circuit?

Thanks,
Brian

[Brian516]

oh and one more question, could I replace an H11D1 with just a reg phototransistor and IR diode?

[min2oly]

The core on my newer coil is just about 3/4" The old coils that I have (which I have 3 of) are 7/16" diameter cores. I really want to get some R60 welding rod to use instead of the soft iron rebar tie wire I'm currently using. Should I remove the core of the coil I'm currently using and "sleeve it" so that I have a smaller core? If I do that, there is going to be a bigger gap between the core and the wire, and it will be filled with PVC.

it's not going to matter much if the magnets are 7/8" wide. picture this... your 7/8" magnet side by side with your 3/4 inch core, minus a little bit, maybe 1/8" for activation/overlap... also, the magnet comes out the other side of the core so you have to add another 3/4" for that so your transistor wants to be on for that entire 2-ish inches worth of passing. you can try anything you like, let us know how it goes.

Is what you are getting at that my cores should be just a little smaller than the width of my magnets? Once I have some money to spare (trying to get caught up right now ) I will buy some more magnets that are a different size, and possibly shape. I'm looking into the benefits of using round, thicker magnets... What do you think of the idea of sandwiching a thin neo magnet between two C8 ferrites, or putting the neo behind the ferrite magnets?

you probably don't need to sandwich it, maybe just place it on the back.

By neg to neg charging mode, are you speaking of the inverted generator setup? I haven't messed with any of that yet, but I want to for sure...
I also have a couple schematics where it's positive to positive....

yes, and we've done the + to + as well.

I'm also trying to process the whole cap-dump setup... and am wondering, do I have to remove the charge battery from it's standard position in order to be able to get enough "juice" out of the generator coil (1 - on same spool; 2 - isolated as load coil ) in order to be able to do anything with it? In my current setup, (the standard SG) When I hook up my gen coils to separate BR's (with or without a cap across the DC side) and hook a meter to it, I can barely get 5 volts unless I crank the speed all the way up, and even then I still don't get very much...

RS has a nice schematic and thread going on that cap dump. check that out and ask him anything you like. he's a whiz.

It's 5/16" rod, and I used the rubber paper-gripping rollers that were on it when I removed it from the printer. I squeezed them into the holes of the cd's and hot glued around the edges. I had to use some oil to lube them up to get them on the shaft. They fit quite nicely, actually.

very nice! I like that very much.

Sorry for all of the complete amateur questions.....

Thanks for all your help!!
Brian

I like the charging you were getting w/ 10 spikes, did you exhaust that already...

[Brian516]

it's not going to matter much if the magnets are 7/8" wide. picture this... your 7/8" magnet side by side with your 3/4 inch core, minus a little bit, maybe 1/8" for activation/overlap... also, the magnet comes out the other side of the core so you have to add another 3/4" for that so your transistor wants to be on for that entire 2-ish inches worth of passing. you can try anything you like, let us know how it goes.

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, and I wish I did since it's one of the fundamental things about pulse motors... Correct me if I am wrong here but what I think you are saying is this:
1- the transistor's base is reacting to the trigger wire's inductive pulse from the collapsing magnetic field's reversed polarity, and wants to stay open (or does stay open??) for DOUBLE the width of the core material plus the magnet width? What causes that? I'm guessing that is the reason why John recommends keeping the magnets two widths apart?

That means, since I have 1 3/4" spacing between the magnets, that the transistor isn't shutting off until it's forced shut by the next magnet passing, causing the coil's polarity to reverse again?

Also, what causes the multiple pulses per magnet pass? How can there be 10, 4, or even 2 pulses each time the magnet passes? Does the coil reverse polarity that many times, or is there some kind of ringing or oscillation occurring every time, that continues until the next magnet passes?

I like the charging you were getting w/ 10 spikes, did you exhaust that already...

I still have all those coils, and the specs for everything, but yes... that isn't happening anymore for the time being. when I can, I'm going to order a bunch more magnets, and I'll get 3 more of the same ones I have now, since I still have 1 left. Once I do that, I'll rebuilt it and run some super long term tests with various size/capacity/types of batteries. I would have left it alone if I had the materials to make another machine that I had more options with.

BTW - I found some settings my current machine really likes! I swapped the trigger to the same size wire as the power coils, and it seems to love it! I guess that makes sense considering that's what the schematic I used called for.... I probably could just swap out the 1n5408's for 4007's or GP15's and got it running just fine, though. The two 26awg wires should be just fine for running a cap dump on, and if they aren't I can try using one of my smaller coils, or remove one of my transistors and use that wire. I'm going to just have to decide on one thing at a time, though!! hahaha To do everything I want to do, I would need a few million dollars and at least 10 more hands and a couple more brains! Is anyone here working on cloning?!?!?!?!

Anyway, here are some results for after changing the trigger wire -

13.150V 5:31 (machine off)
13.236 5:36 230mA 3 Pulses
13.397 6:31
13.500 6:41
13.542 7:18 325mA 3 Pulses
13.591 8:18

My smaller coils, and the other setup reacted much better to the lower current draw and slow speed... If I end up not liking my results over the next day or two, I'll put it back together, since it would just be a simple coil swap and diode change out.

Brian

[min2oly]

I'm not sure I understand what you mean, and I wish I did since it's one of the fundamental things about pulse motors... Correct me if I am wrong here but what I think you are saying is this:
1- the transistor's base is reacting to the trigger wire's inductive pulse from the collapsing magnetic field's reversed polarity, and wants to stay open (or does stay open??) for DOUBLE the width of the core material plus the magnet width? What causes that? I'm guessing that is the reason why John recommends keeping the magnets two widths apart?

That means, since I have 1 3/4" spacing between the magnets, that the transistor isn't shutting off until it's forced shut by the next magnet passing, causing the coil's polarity to reverse again?

Also, what causes the multiple pulses per magnet pass? How can there be 10, 4, or even 2 pulses each time the magnet passes? Does the coil reverse polarity that many times, or is there some kind of ringing or oscillation occurring every time, that continues until the next magnet passes?





I still have all those coils, and the specs for everything, but yes... that isn't happening anymore for the time being. when I can, I'm going to order a bunch more magnets, and I'll get 3 more of the same ones I have now, since I still have 1 left. Once I do that, I'll rebuilt it and run some super long term tests with various size/capacity/types of batteries. I would have left it alone if I had the materials to make another machine that I had more options with.

BTW - I found some settings my current machine really likes! I swapped the trigger to the same size wire as the power coils, and it seems to love it! I guess that makes sense considering that's what the schematic I used called for.... I probably could just swap out the 1n5408's for 4007's or GP15's and got it running just fine, though. The two 26awg wires should be just fine for running a cap dump on, and if they aren't I can try using one of my smaller coils, or remove one of my transistors and use that wire. I'm going to just have to decide on one thing at a time, though!! hahaha To do everything I want to do, I would need a few million dollars and at least 10 more hands and a couple more brains! Is anyone here working on cloning?!?!?!?!

Anyway, here are some results for after changing the trigger wire -

13.150V 5:31 (machine off)
13.236 5:36 230mA 3 Pulses
13.397 6:31
13.500 6:41
13.542 7:18 325mA 3 Pulses
13.591 8:18

My smaller coils, and the other setup reacted much better to the lower current draw and slow speed... If I end up not liking my results over the next day or two, I'll put it back together, since it would just be a simple coil swap and diode change out.

Brian

maybe 3rd time's a charm :-) I'm not the best at explaining things.
as long as a magnet is passing moving or otherwise influencing a copper wire, voltage and current are moving along that wire. so if you have a 2 foot magnet and pass it along a coil. the energy will move along that wire the entire time. This means the energy is hitting the base of that transistor for the entire 2 feet worth of time.

I explained below a little earlier, the why of multiple pulses per magnet pass. there is more to it and more able people have explained it and can easily be searched on the net what forces a transistor to shut off.

Yes, excellent discovery! With this energy the SSG, the transistors base loves a bit more current therefore the thicker wire to turn it on (not too much though). A good brief smack on is better than a gradual closing of the switch. fill the coil quick with potential and shut it off even faster while the coil is biased with the magnet pass. that is the key. getting everything to balance is the art you are learning.
I like how you keep your "eye on the ball"
KR - Patrick A

[min2oly]

Had a moment to draw what I mean...

let me know anyone if you have corrections to this.
Thanks - Patrick A

[Brian516]

Had a moment to draw what I mean...
[ATTACH=CONFIG]4423[/ATTACH]
let me know anyone if you have corrections to this.
Thanks - Patrick A

Doesn't the transistor turn on once the magnet has passed the center of the coil? I thought that when the magnet gets close to the coil, it activates the trigger wire and draws off of the primary, builds up the magnetic field in the coil, and then once the magnet has passed the coil, the field collapses and hits the base, draws the juice into the collector/emitter, and shoots it out thru the diode into the charge battery? Is this not correct?

[min2oly]

Doesn't the transistor turn on once the magnet has passed the center of the coil? I thought that when the magnet gets close to the coil, it activates the trigger wire and draws off of the primary, builds up the magnetic field in the coil, and then once the magnet has passed the coil, the field collapses and hits the base, draws the juice into the collector/emitter, and shoots it out thru the diode into the charge battery? Is this not correct?

The transistor should turn on once the wire has delivered +0.6 volts to the base and some current....

The point at which this happens will vary depending on soooooooooo many things you are already finding out.

On the normal "spec" SSG bike wheel, I would argue this happens as I have drawn it out.
KR - Patrick

[Brian516]

The transistor should turn on once the wire has delivered +0.6 volts to the base and some current....

Even though the Base - Emitter on voltage for the 21194 is 2.2VDC?

SOOOO much to learn..... it will never, ever, ever end... but if it did, that would mean I died....

[min2oly]

Even though the Base - Emitter on voltage for the 21194 is 2.2VDC?

SOOOO much to learn..... it will never, ever, ever end... but if it did, that would mean I died....

I thought 2.2 was the max, easy to test with a battery and a bulb. Anyway, forget about the .6, even if it is 2.2 how far does that magnet need to enter into the core's space in order to create the 2.2V or whatever Volts required, not very far... and it needs to have exited the same remaining amount on the other end before it stops sending energy down the wire. Point of all this is not to nitpick the numbers, just learn how to control for the desired effect without wasting energy in the process.
Cheers,
Patrick

[Brian516]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like a smart anus...

wouldn't a reed switch be the best way to control when the transistor turns on and off? Say I was to figure out exactly when I wanted the transistor to turn on, and turn off... take another stack of CDs and put them on the end of my shaft, and cut some magnets to the exact length that I need to keep the transistor on for a specific length of time..... then I could fiddle around with the adjustment of them until I have it just right... wouldn't that be the best way, since a reed switch is the best thing for abrupt shut-offs and turn-ons? Or is the whole point of this experience to learn how to do this within the confines of the current system without adding extra components? Then that would make it kind of cheating... right?

What frustrates me the most is not being able to immediately see the effect of a modification that I make, and having to wait hours for worthwhile results!!! I want to get myself a scope!! Do you know if the ones that are PC based are any good? I might try and scoop one up sometime soon along with a big, fat wirewound 500ohm or 1kohm pot so I don't keep cooking my pots! I had one nearly explode in my hand earlier!

Anyway, my brain needs to defragment and reconstitute itself now.....

peace out home fries!

[min2oly]

Sorry, didn't mean to sound like a smart anus...

wouldn't a reed switch be the best way to control when the transistor turns on and off? Say I was to figure out exactly when I wanted the transistor to turn on, and turn off... take another stack of CDs and put them on the end of my shaft, and cut some magnets to the exact length that I need to keep the transistor on for a specific length of time..... then I could fiddle around with the adjustment of them until I have it just right... wouldn't that be the best way, since a reed switch is the best thing for abrupt shut-offs and turn-ons? Or is the whole point of this experience to learn how to do this within the confines of the current system without adding extra components? Then that would make it kind of cheating... right?

What frustrates me the most is not being able to immediately see the effect of a modification that I make, and having to wait hours for worthwhile results!!! I want to get myself a scope!! Do you know if the ones that are PC based are any good? I might try and scoop one up sometime soon along with a big, fat wirewound 500ohm or 1kohm pot so I don't keep cooking my pots! I had one nearly explode in my hand earlier!

Anyway, my brain needs to defragment and reconstitute itself now.....

peace out home fries!

Hi Brian,
no worries, I did not take it that way.

the reed is a nice tool, it also has it's challenges. For one, it is not as reliable for endurance, it is prone to getting stuck, it is difficult to shorten the on time, and it chatters. That being said I really like the reed and use it often... all of this stuff has a learning curve many here are much faster learners than I am. I have only spent a few years now.

The hall switch is also a device John Bedini has used to control the transistors on off time.
There is much to be learned with the setup as you have it. Scope is over rated IMHO. you can use a mic and some software that will accomplish most of what you need to know when tuning this machine. I would even say at this point in the game for you, a scope might be a distraction. 1,000's of very intelligent people that have come before us have searched eagerly with the scope only to be dumbfounded by it. They have built and rebuilt chasing a ghost they were never able to find because the scope blinded them. Your lack of a scope can force patience and adherence to examining the results in your batteries, something most of us lack. Don't mean to try and get all philosophical don't mind me too much :-)

If I were to spend anything on the setup you have right now, the only thing I would add would be a second set of CD's to make a wheel with 1/2" wide magnets on it. One of the best eye opening tools in my arsenal has been to be able to change the magnets, coils and transistors.
one of my CPU mod videos has the software and use of it side by side with a scope. I'll try and look it up if I have more time later.
KR - Patrick A

[Brian516]

Some interesting results:

When I have the smaller coil's single power wire hooked into the system:
- Can only get 1 pulse per magnet pass
- Cannot get above a certain fairly slow speed
- Will not run on more than about 160ohms
- Seem to get better battery charging
- Resistance turned up: less current, faster speed, slower charging
- Resistance turned down: more current, slower speed, faster charging

Without top coil hooked into system, and moved away from rotor:
- Can get multiple pulses per magnet pass
- Can reach very high speeds
- Will run on up to about 450ohms
- Resistance turned up: less current, slower speed, slower charging
- Resistance turned down: more current, faster speed, faster charging

Not sure what to think of the the whole speed/resistance thing with the different setups.

Last night, with the top coil in place, I decided to stick on 4 AA size LifePO4 batteries, in series, each of which is only 600mA...
When I started, I had sucked almost every last drop of life out of them, and after they settled back up I was working with a total of 5.757V
This is with only getting 1 pulse per pass the entire time:

5.757V 11:24
12.486 11:35 780mA at about 55ohms
13.095 11:45
13.220 11:50 turned to 800mA
13.068 11:55 turned down to 325mA, about 147ohms
13.150 12:00 turned to 550mA
13.193 12:08 turned to 595mA
13,176 12:30 turned back to 324mA
13.397 12:50
19.77 11:22AM ---!!!!!!!! I obviously removed them right away...

16.445V at 4:25 PM
batt #1: 3.993V
#2: 4.092V
#3: 4.104V
#4: 4.247V

I am currently running #2 and #3 in series on a small Newman motor that I made, which I have ran multiple times on various size batteries, so I can find out if these batteries truly actually have over 4 volts capacity and the Current to back that up...


After that, I put my 3 6V 4.5Ah batteries in series and am charging those with the same system. I started out with the top coil, but have removed it part way thru.

Started with 18.326V total at 11:25AM
18.446 11:28
19.020 3:39PM 380mA still only getting 1 pulse
Here I removed the top coil transistor and backed it away
18.918 4:19 300mA 3PPP about 250ohms (325mA after removing ammeter, and then quickly reattaching it to get a quick reading)
18.946 4:23
18.976 4:35
18.987 4:51
19.007 5:07 370mA
19.018 5:29

The charging rate seems to vary depending on the batteries voltage and maybe resistance/impedence.... or some other factors, when it is at this low of a current draw and speed.
I'm sure if I turned the resistance down and let it draw more current, I could get a much more stable charging rate out of it... but that isn't the point of my current experimentation...

Brian