SG running on 60mA - still charging well

[min2oly]

Here's the vid using the Visual Analyzer software:

you deleted your second to last post before I could answer...
did you find what you were looking for?
you're learning pretty fast, I wouldn't worry about making mistakes as long as you find them, resolve them, or otherwise correct them. We ALL do it.
except the "debunkers" of course - they're never wrong...
Keep'm spinning
KR - Patrick A

[Brian516]

Last night, with the top coil in place, I decided to stick on 4 AA size LifePO4 batteries, in series, each of which is only 600mA...
When I started, I had sucked almost every last drop of life out of them, and after they settled back up I was working with a total of 5.757V
This is with only getting 1 pulse per pass the entire time:

5.757V 11:24
12.486 11:35 780mA at about 55ohms
13.095 11:45
13.220 11:50 turned to 800mA
13.068 11:55 turned down to 325mA, about 147ohms
13.150 12:00 turned to 550mA
13.193 12:08 turned to 595mA
13,176 12:30 turned back to 324mA
13.397 12:50
19.77 11:22AM ---!!!!!!!! I obviously removed them right away...

16.445V at 4:25 PM
batt #1: 3.993V
#2: 4.092V
#3: 4.104V
#4: 4.247V

I am currently running #2 and #3 in series on a small Newman motor that I made, which I have ran multiple times on various size batteries, so I can find out if these batteries truly actually have over 4 volts capacity and the Current to back that up...

After running these two batteries on that small-newman/window-ish motor for quite a while, I do believe the voltage was in fact over 4V and there was plenty of mAh to back that up. That motor will not run on a 6v battery when I have an MPSA06 on it, and those two batteries ran the motor from 4:33PM until 11:00PM, then stopped and were left until 12:30AM when I started it again and it ran for another 15 minutes. Next, I put a 2n4401 in instead of the 'A06, and ran it again from 12:50AM until 1:45AM. As a reference, on an A06 only, this device will run for 16 hours on a 2600mAh 9V Li-Ion battery. It ran for a total of 8 hours on 8V with batteries rated at 600mAh.... 7 hours if you don't include the transistor swap, since I don't swap the transistor for the 9V (not like it would matter anyway, since it's a Li-Ion battery.)

These Li-PO's seem to run more like traditional NiMH's with the way I have them conditioned, just with way more kick and lasting power. I'm sure they hold their top end voltage a bit better, though.

I know it isn't entirely related to my SSG/SG experiments, but I found it quite interesting, and maybe useful for others who feel like getting some more BANG out of their LiPO batteries.

Started with 18.326V total at 11:25AM
18.446 11:28
19.020 3:39PM 380mA still only getting 1 pulse
Here I removed the top coil transistor and backed it away
18.918 4:19 300mA 3PPP about 250ohms (325mA after removing ammeter, and then quickly reattaching it to get a quick reading)
18.946 4:23
18.976 4:35
18.987 4:51
19.007 5:07 370mA
19.018 5:29

More results:

19.269 11:43PM
19.649 11:50 turned it to 575mA, 2 pulses, at about 170ohm
19.74 12:30AM
20.21 1:00 turned to 665mA 3 pulses
20.14 1:17 turned to 671mA 2 pulses
21.04 8:05

It seems that these batteries will only charge up to a certain point when running from 12V source. I'm about to find out...... Going to add back in the top coil and see how it charges on 1 pulse and low current draw for a bit....

I salvaged a large amount of 20awg, 20.5awg, 23awg, and 28awg wire from the stator of a blower motor last night... and I'm going to annihilate some transformers today, so I will soon have a pile of wire to play with! I already have a ridiculous amount of 27awg litz wire (4 and also 7 strands) and various other short lengths... so I'm going to have to find something to do with it!!! Anyone have any interesting ideas?

[Brian516]

Here's the vid using the Visual Analyzer software:

you deleted your second to last post before I could answer...
did you find what you were looking for?
you're learning pretty fast, I wouldn't worry about making mistakes as long as you find them, resolve them, or otherwise correct them. We ALL do it.
except the "debunkers" of course - they're never wrong...
Keep'm spinning
KR - Patrick A

I got a little confused there with the whole magnetic flux, Induced current, and CEMF stuff, and believe I may have had quite a bit of that wrong possibly. Now that I think about it, I should have left the post up to see what you could correct for me, but I thought it might be confusing to any other beginners who read it, so I deleted it so I don't confuse or overcomplicate anyone else's understanding ..

BUTTTT - I will run over what I said quickly to see what you think of what I think is happening here...

When the mag gets close to the coil, the magnetic flux induces a current in the trigger coil, and CEMF is induced in the power coil - it travels thru the output diode/charge battery, but is too weak to charge the battery.

The magnet gets to where the flux is between increasing and decreasing, and the current stops for a split microsecond....

The magnet is on it's way out of the coils space, thus flux is decreasing, and the coil's polarity reverses - voltage/current strike the base of the trans and out the emitter, turning it on, and allowing voltage/current to flow around the circuit and thru the run battery, energizing the power winding of the coil and building up a high potential in the coil.

The base-emitter diode forces the transistor OFF, (with or without the magnet being past the coil) and that high potential spike gets shot thru the charge battery.
When multiple spikes are occurring, the transistor is forced off by the diode while the flux is still decreasing, but not out of the coil's "zone" collapsing the field, releasing the potential. Then the magnetic flux forces the transistor back on again, it charges the coil, diode shuts it off, BOOM - another spike into charge battery...
(it seems to me that the more spikes one gets, the weaker they are, because the transistor isn't staying on long enough for the max amount of potential to build in the coil. the more pulses per pass, the less charge time, the smaller the spikes are going to be, and vice-verse. However, at 1 pulse per magnet pass, there is still quite a lot of fine-tuning to be done in order to get the max potential charge into the coil before it gets collapsed.)

The base resistance's role in all of this is to control how fast or slow the trigger's reversed polarity pulse gets to the transistor and turns it on, correct?

I am wondering where the CEMF is during this whole process. at first, I thought that all of the induced current in the system was CEMF, but I now know that is very incorrect.
From what I gather from some video's, when people are "delaying the lenz effect" they are using a coil whose resistance and inductance are so high that by the time the CEMF catches up to the induced current, the magnet has already passed the coil and magnetic flux decreasing, so the CEMF that was reacting to the increasing flux hits high enough potential once the magnetic flux is already decreasing, and vice verse.


How am I doing so far?

hope you're having a kickarse day!
Brian

[Brian516]

Also, what is the visual analyzer software that you are using? I'm going to have to find a worthy mic..... I may make a mini one out of a cell phone mic if I can....

ohhh heyyyyy.... I am ordering a 25W wirewound pot today, but I wanted to see what you think here..... I want to be able to use it on as much of a variety of projects as possible, while still keeping it at a range where it's actually reasonable (where I'm not swapping the base resistances every two seconds because my range is too short).

At first I was going to get a 1kohm, but I thought about it, and since these machines can be reallllllllly sensitive to even .1ohm when fine-tuning, I am considering more like 500ohm, or even 300ohm.... to me, 500ohm seems like it might be the one to go with, what do you think?

Thanks!
Brian

[min2oly]

I got a little confused there with the whole magnetic flux, Induced current, and CEMF stuff, and believe I may have had quite a bit of that wrong possibly. Now that I think about it, I should have left the post up to see what you could correct for me, but I thought it might be confusing to any other beginners who read it, so I deleted it so I don't confuse or overcomplicate anyone else's understanding ..

BUTTTT - I will run over what I said quickly to see what you think of what I think is happening here...

When the mag gets close to the coil, the magnetic flux induces a current in the trigger coil, and CEMF is induced in the power coil - it travels thru the output diode/charge battery, but is too weak to charge the battery.

The magnet gets to where the flux is between increasing and decreasing, and the current stops for a split microsecond....

The magnet is on it's way out of the coils space, thus flux is decreasing, and the coil's polarity reverses - voltage/current strike the base of the trans and out the emitter, turning it on, and allowing voltage/current to flow around the circuit and thru the run battery, energizing the power winding of the coil and building up a high potential in the coil.

The base-emitter diode forces the transistor OFF, (with or without the magnet being past the coil) and that high potential spike gets shot thru the charge battery.
When multiple spikes are occurring, the transistor is forced off by the diode while the flux is still decreasing, but not out of the coil's "zone" collapsing the field, releasing the potential. Then the magnetic flux forces the transistor back on again, it charges the coil, diode shuts it off, BOOM - another spike into charge battery...
(it seems to me that the more spikes one gets, the weaker they are, because the transistor isn't staying on long enough for the max amount of potential to build in the coil. the more pulses per pass, the less charge time, the smaller the spikes are going to be, and vice-verse. However, at 1 pulse per magnet pass, there is still quite a lot of fine-tuning to be done in order to get the max potential charge into the coil before it gets collapsed.)

The base resistance's role in all of this is to control how fast or slow the trigger's reversed polarity pulse gets to the transistor and turns it on, correct?

I am wondering where the CEMF is during this whole process. at first, I thought that all of the induced current in the system was CEMF, but I now know that is very incorrect.
From what I gather from some video's, when people are "delaying the lenz effect" they are using a coil whose resistance and inductance are so high that by the time the CEMF catches up to the induced current, the magnet has already passed the coil and magnetic flux decreasing, so the CEMF that was reacting to the increasing flux hits high enough potential once the magnetic flux is already decreasing, and vice verse.


How am I doing so far?

hope you're having a kickarse day!
Brian

Hi Brian, same to you and I am.
This is a good place as any to start:http://youtu.be/0sCthNvl56I?t=33m51s

Vid insert did not work the way I thought. start at 33minutes.
remember that coil is also a transformer. the energy will not choose which wire to go through, it will be present in both wires. it's what we do with the ckt and load that will decide where it ends up.

In short, for this experiment, I try not to think about things to complicated. The magnet puts a forward voltage to the transistor base turns it on, energy fills the coil at close to the same time the magnet is putting energy in the coil (slightly after so they can repel or slightly before so they can attract depending on how you have things arranged) this is the key part of the compression here. then the transistor shuts off/opens and the energy is released into the battery.

IMHO everything else is irrelevant to what we need to study about charging that battery. we are trying to create that event with as little input and get the maximum output as possible. So to contradict myself now, this is where the little details come back and we do need to understand how to manipulate them to increase our efficiencies.
This is what we want charging are batteries:
http://techtv.mit.edu/videos/880
Well...... take it easy... not too much at once Eh :-)
eye on the ball...
KR - Patrick A

[min2oly]

Also, what is the visual analyzer software that you are using? I'm going to have to find a worthy mic..... I may make a mini one out of a cell phone mic if I can....

ohhh heyyyyy.... I am ordering a 25W wirewound pot today, but I wanted to see what you think here..... I want to be able to use it on as much of a variety of projects as possible, while still keeping it at a range where it's actually reasonable (where I'm not swapping the base resistances every two seconds because my range is too short).

At first I was going to get a 1kohm, but I thought about it, and since these machines can be reallllllllly sensitive to even .1ohm when fine-tuning, I am considering more like 500ohm, or even 300ohm.... to me, 500ohm seems like it might be the one to go with, what do you think?

Thanks!
Brian

Search... "visual analyzer software" it's the first thing that comes up :-)
sorry, with two transistors I would not invest much on a POT. You can put a resistor across your pot (in parallel) to drop it down for finer tuning.
Another good tip for fine tuning, if you find you are having to place too much resistance on a setup, you can start removing winds from the trigger coil...
Cheers,
Patrick A

[Brian516]

Very informative and easy to understand.... definitely subscribing and watching all of his videos on those lectures! thanks for introducing me to them!

The magnet puts a forward voltage to the transistor base turns it on, energy fills the coil at close to the same time the magnet is putting energy in the coil (slightly after so they can repel or slightly before so they can attract depending on how you have things arranged) this is the key part of the compression here.

So now I know the difference between attraction mode and repulsion mode... and my system is running in attraction mode.
In order to run it in repulsion mode, I would just swap around both the trigger and power wires, correct? That, or turn the magnets over to all S poles facing out... Is that all there is to it?
I believe that I have heard that there are some extra advantages to running it in repulsion mode, which I will now look into.....

IMHO everything else is irrelevant to what we need to study about charging that battery. we are trying to create that event with as little input and get the maximum output as possible. So to contradict myself now, this is where the little details come back and we do need to understand how to manipulate them to increase our efficiencies.
This is what we want charging are batteries:
http://techtv.mit.edu/videos/880

So then the Back (or Counter) EMF is what occurs when either the N pole is leaving (same as S pole approaching) and the transistor is switched off (circuit opened) when motor is in attraction mode, or when the N pole magnet is approaching (same as S pole leaving) and the transistor is switched off (circuit opened) when the motor is in repulsion mode......
From the way I am picturing this in my head, one of the advantages to running it in repulsion mode is that the coil would have a little more time to build up that charge. Am I correct?

Or am I looking at this all the wrong way......... If the N pole leaving is the EXACT same as the S pole approaching and vice verse, then both attraction and repulsion mode both have the same charging and discharging time periods. However, I have a feeling that this isn't the case exactly.

It only makes sense that the magnets and their spacing play a DIRECT role in how long the period of time is for charging/discharging, and that the charge/discharge times are reversed when going from attraction mode to repulsion mode. Therefore, in repulsion mode you get a longer charge period and shorter discharge, and in attraction you get a shorter charge period and longer discharge period. Since the discharge is a very rapid, intense spike of energy, it wouldn't make much sense to give it longer to discharge UNLESS you WANT multiple charge/discharges to occur (more pulses per magnet pass).... If you wanted multiple spikes on a repulsion drive system, you would have to force them to occur very very rapidly, leaving very little time for the coil to build up it's potential. So that means that, in repulsion mode, one spike per magnet pass is ideal.
Does that sound about right to you?

sorry, with two transistors I would not invest much on a POT. You can put a resistor across your pot (in parallel) to drop it down for finer tuning.

Do you mean I should buy more transistors instead? I have 7 MJL21194's and 4 MJL21193's, 17 2n3055's, several TIP34C and TIP35C's, etc etc.... So for now, until I exceed 7 power wires, I don't need to get more transistors... But I need a good POT not only for the machine I'm running these tests on, but any other things I end up building that could potentially burn up POTs that are less than 1W. I currently do not have ANY 1k's. For that matter, I have 1 2k .5W and 2 25ohm 3 watt rheo's. I think I'm going to scoop up the 1k ohm 25W.. since now I know I can reduce it's value with a parallel resistor for finer turning. Thanks for that pointer!!

Another good tip for fine tuning, if you find you are having to place too much resistance on a setup, you can start removing winds from the trigger coil...

So far my setups have had very little resistance on the trigger coil. the one I'm running now, without the top coil hooked up won't run if resistance is above about 450ohms, and with the top coil it wont run once I've hit about 150ohms. Should I start using separate, isolated trigger coils for the time being until I learn what the proper ratios are? I'm sure there are many variables with that such as magnet strength, size, core size and permeability, spacing, power coil size, wire gauge, inductance, resistance...... etc etc... buttttt my specialty is math, so once I fully understand what's going on with everything and what has what effects, I should be able to calculate just about anything, as long as its component's characteristics can be assigned a number value.
Let me elaborate on my mathematical status.... I used to be an incredible math whiz, but life happened, I got out of practice, and I need to review it all and sharpen up on it. I bought some 'for dummies' geometry and algebra books and workbooks, which I will soon be allotting at least an hour a day on. I know that math will play a very, very important role in this venture towards tapping the perpetual motion of magnets/electromagnets and converting it into usable energy...

but one step at a time. baby steps for now..... then one day, leaps and bounds!!!

Brian



Brian

[Brian516]

Ahhhhhhhhh!! I should have read the "Bedini SG complete beginner's handbook" a long, long, long time ago! I will now have to read it in full even though I already learned a lot of it, and then read the intermediate, and then get my hands on the advanced book.......

Sooo my machine runs in repulsion mode, not attraction mode. I didn't bother to take into account that the mode is derived from what happens AFTER the transistor is turned on!!!!

I believe that I am going to reverse my connections and make it attraction mode, since it is stated that it runs better that way..... SO I was incorrect in stating that repulsion mode would be better apparently..
Now I need to figure out WHY I was incorrect!! I bet the Bedini SG books will fill me in on that if I just continue reading...!!!!!!!!

After reading some more, I'm going to swap the machine around and see how it runs when charging my 12V 5Ah... and I need to start discharging my 7Ah ANDDDD all 3 6V's...... the 6V discharge starting in, oh..... at least 24 hours.... I need to get more batteries! I may actually make 2 smaller 12V batteries out of the lead that I have, but I'm not sure if I really wanna do that instead of making one. The lead is from a 5AH SLA, and an approximately 12 Ah 12V motorcycle battery (flooded) that I destroyed with wayyyy too much current on a regular charger. the cells expanded bigtime, acid boiled, case bulged.... lol! Sure learned a lesson there though.
Alright back to work, just wanted to correct myself....

[Brian516]

Swapped it over to attraction mode and have some cool stuff happening.... I made a vid so you can see it in action. I think now I'm going to mod my PSU so I have voltages over 12 to play with, while I let this guy run for a while... And read some of the Bedini SG intermediate handbook.

Peace & elbow grease...
Brian

[Brian516]

Hey hey heYYY -

Anyone see any reasons why I can't use this: http://www.datasheet4u.com/datasheet...uctor.pdf.html
instead of this:http://www.vishay.com/docs/83611/83611.pdf


anddddddd this: http://www.datasheetcatalog.com/data...T151-650R.shtm
instead of this: http://pdf.datasheetcatalog.com/data...ola/2N6398.pdf

for cap dumping on the machine seen above? I am very impatient and don't want to wait 7-14 days for new parts to come in....


Thank eweeeeeeeeeeee!!

nairB


Also, I found a series of videos and a book that explain the truth about magnetism. It's very enlightening and I believe will definitely help me in understanding how to extract electricity from magnetism. Complicated, yet simplex.... Worth the time to watch for sure

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VWMu0cndKl4


G'day friends,
Brian

[Tom C]

Brian,

we use the transistors JB recommends as they have the characteristics the inventor is looking for.

Tom C

[min2oly]

Hi Brian,
I hope you glean from my posts, I am not a big fan of advocating spending any more money than is necessary. At this point, for what you have I would not add on any more transistors or anything else but a second wheel w/ 1/2" wide magnets on it.

If you want to go bigger, do the bike wheel setup and get the 4 or 8 transistor kit that comes with matched transistors... you can swap your wheels, coils, etc...
Patrick

[Tom C]

Brian,

you have seen the theory work, I would encourage you to replicate the device exactly as John Bedini designed it first. it is a great start point for everything else.

Tom C

[Brian516]

Hi Brian,
I hope you glean from my posts, I am not a big fan of advocating spending any more money than is necessary. At this point, for what you have I would not add on any more transistors or anything else but a second wheel w/ 1/2" wide magnets on it.

If you want to go bigger, do the bike wheel setup and get the 4 or 8 transistor kit that comes with matched transistors... you can swap your wheels, coils, etc...
Patrick

Patrick,

I know that I can get a bit off track and bounce around a lot. Sorry if I've frustrated you! I frustrate myself a lot, actually.

I am definitely referencing your previous posts over and over for information I've missed the first, second, third, etc times around. I have also been watching your vids a bit as well.
There is so much to learn and so many different ways I could go about it, and I need to just buckle down and keep at one specific thing for a while until I'm really ready to move on to something new.
That is more or less what I am attempting to do right now, actually, starting with finishing this book about how components function and the fundamentals of them, and reading John's instructional packets as well.



Tom,

I am just trying to use what I currently have until I can order the exact parts I should use, which I will be doing. Once I have the money to spend on getting the correct wire, all the magnets, and everything else, I will definitely replicate the machine as is specified by JB, as exact replication of any previously invented device is always the best way to go about learning what there is to learn, and trying to add to the collective knowledge base that these forums are purposed for.


Brian

[Tom C]

no probs Brian, want you to be successful that all!!

Tom C