Nickle Iron Cells

[min2oly]

Nice thread, following with interest...

[James McDonald]

Yea that was the main attraction for me, they can be abused and last forever,, I mean what else could we want.

I am going to go out on a limb here but I think these cells may offer some advantages when running on an SSG or that type of charge circuit. The characteristics are very different and I think they have pretty low impedance by comparison of LA. I do not remember which video but there was a youtube that Mr. Bedini did where he was talking about some Alum conversion batteries he was working with and he started to make some comments,, something like "it was the batteries all along" he was sort of excited and the impression I got from it was that there was something special going on with the alkaline base verses the acid base. Granted he was using the alum on lead plates but I think those converted batteries behave closer to these NiFe cells than their original behavior as LA.

We shall see how they do over time. I plan to run many more tests including running in mode 1 and some cap dumping as well. I think I could have shortened this run I just posted but that is something I also need to test, bring it up to the upper knee and not run it so long to see what I get back out. It's going to take time to figure out the right way to work with these batteries but as I figure stuff out I will continue to post some examples in this thread.

Here is the discharge chart from that run. It did very well in my opinion. I notice that it was still strong when it got to the 10.5v that I set the cut off for. In other words there was no drop off. I think at the half amp rate I could have maybe gone down to 10v or even 9. The other way to look at it could be that I can probably pull .75A or 1A from them,, more testing is needed.

Hi BobZilla --

I have been contacting the battery company in China that makes these Nickel Iron batteries to get pricing and delivery
by sea. Since I am near to the Baltimore Port of entry the travel to pick them up at customs is not more then a 30 minute
drive. The sea transport cost from China is $100.00 US dollars and the weight is like 250 pounds for 20 of the TN-100 Nickel-Iron batteries. The cost of each battery is $45.00 dollars. The terms for paying for them is 30% of the order total up front to start the battery order and then 70% once the order is ready to ship. These are direct bank transfers of money direct to their account. The cost of each transfer will be at least $30.00 dollars more due to it will be two bank transfers. Then starts the sea transport of 25 to 30 days. By the time you get your batteries 45 days would have passed by. They complained a little in the email of not getting a 100 battery order but said they would proceed with the order and called it a sample order. I am still working on this with the customs people to make sure they are not held up at the Baltimore Port for lacking paper work to get them into the country. I am also researching the import costs if any. Its very hard to communicate a quote to them. They think its an order. I did get the price on the TN-10 batteries also and they want $5.80 per battery. The price on the TN-50 was $23.00 dollars each and the price for the TN-200 with $89.00 dollars each. I am still working on if the connectors and the filler is included. It has been an ordeal as there English skills are not very good for understanding what you write to them. They did send me an operators manual on the battery in Micro-Soft Word format but its to big to attach to the forum post. If you want a copy of it just PM me with your email address.


-- James

[BobZilla]

Hi James,
I just PM'd you. Thanks for the offer.

So I'm curious all said and done how much would you be saving by going this route instead of ordering from say Iron Edison here in the US or even IronCore? I did come across links in places like Alibaba when I was looking but then I realized all of the hassle you described with customs and communicating the order etc.. I just didn't feel comfortable trying to pull it off myself. I paid a lot in shipping but I did not have to worry about anything going wrong and it was delivered right to my door.

Eventually I do want to get some large cells and I will have to consider options for getting those.

[James McDonald]

Hi James,
I just PM'd you. Thanks for the offer.

So I'm curious all said and done how much would you be saving by going this route instead of ordering from say Iron Edison here in the US or even IronCore? I did come across links in places like Alibaba when I was looking but then I realized all of the hassle you described with customs and communicating the order etc.. I just didn't feel comfortable trying to pull it off myself. I paid a lot in shipping but I did not have to worry about anything going wrong and it was delivered right to my door.

Eventually I do want to get some large cells and I will have to consider options for getting those.

Hi BobZilla --

I sent you the battery document file. If I were to order 50 of the TN-10 batteries they would cost $5.80 each
plus $100.00 dollars to ship via sea freight. The up in the air part is the customs fee which could be free for an order
under $400.00 dollars but this will be more then $400.00 for the type of battery I want. I am still researching the
custom fees. So the direct price would be $290.00 for the 50 TN-10 batteries then $100.00 dollar sea freight and it
may be no custom fee. But there will be bank fees of $30.00 to $40.00 dollars. So the total will be $430.00 for 50
TN-10 batteries buying direct from the factory in China. The cost per battery would be $8.60 total with all the other
fees already included. You said you paid $15.00 per battery then paid a shipping fee of which you never said what
that was.

-- James

[BobZilla]

I don't remember exactly how it broke down but it was $1081 all said and done. That did include a international bank transfer fee also. So yea you could save some serious money. I guess you would be picking them up yourself at the Baltimore port? I was watching the tracking on mine and they came to the states in through New York so just be sure you know where your stuff is going, that would suck if you had to go up there to get them.

I know I paid a lot for these things but what can I say, I am glad I have them. Like I said starting out I could have had the 100AH from Iron Edison for roughly the same but then I would not have as much versatility with voltage or splitting them out into two banks.

[ZPDM]

You've really sucked me on this after that last video Bob. I've never done anything yet in this area but now I have like a dozen questions, I'll try and throw a few at you and you can decide what you may have time for. First is just how are you doing software/hardware all the battery tracking and graphing, that's really cool. 2) Do you have a guesstimate for how these cells now compare power density wise to lead acid? Not to rain on a parade but I would have to guess that Bedini charged lead acids will last a heck of a long time so are you looking for superior durability, power density or just having fun, learning and seeing what you see? 3) Are the only things in these batteries, nickel, iron and KOH?? 4) If you are running a current between two plates with KOH as an electrolyte while charging, isn't that a hydroxy gas electrolyzer ala Bob Boyce?? I mention that partially out of safety though I am sure you are well aware of danger of off gassing and potential for explosion/implosion whatever it may be. Still I think it was John K mentioning the things bubble like mad while charging and so I am just wondering are you also making hydroxy whilst you charge!!??

Lastly i just came across this site http://www.thomastownsendbrown.com/library.htm a few days back trying to find good info on T. Townsend Brown. Haven't gone through a tenth of it but it is blowing me away. You might enjoy the section on Petrovoltaics, it gave me something to put on the to-do list.

[James McDonald]

I don't remember exactly how it broke down but it was $1081 all said and done. That did include a international bank transfer fee also. So yea you could save some serious money. I guess you would be picking them up yourself at the Baltimore port? I was watching the tracking on mine and they came to the states in through New York so just be sure you know where your stuff is going, that would suck if you had to go up there to get them.

I know I paid a lot for these things but what can I say, I am glad I have them. Like I said starting out I could have had the 100AH from Iron Edison for roughly the same but then I would not have as much versatility with voltage or splitting them out into two banks.

Hi Bob --

Wow, that was a high price but at least the batteries will last you a life time if you keep fluid in them. I just got some pictures from the Chinese battery company. I was making sure the batteries came with the connectors, caps, bolts, and fluid additive. See the pictures they sent to me. They even offered to help me get the Import information once I told them I was researching that. They really want to sell the batteries.




-- James

[BobZilla]

That's looking good James. I will be curious how the whole thing goes for you when you actually order them. I didn't think it was really possible to get them that way because everywhere I looked it said min order 100 or some such numbers. I also thought perhaps you needed a business license or to at least show that you are a business. Anyway so I paid too much I guess but at least I have them. I have been looking for these things for years, not the large ones but I specifically wanted the small ones which seemed very hard to find.

[BobZilla]

You've really sucked me on this after that last video Bob. I've never done anything yet in this area but now I have like a dozen questions, I'll try and throw a few at you and you can decide what you may have time for. First is just how are you doing software/hardware all the battery tracking and graphing, that's really cool. 2) Do you have a guesstimate for how these cells now compare power density wise to lead acid? Not to rain on a parade but I would have to guess that Bedini charged lead acids will last a heck of a long time so are you looking for superior durability, power density or just having fun, learning and seeing what you see? 3) Are the only things in these batteries, nickel, iron and KOH?? 4) If you are running a current between two plates with KOH as an electrolyte while charging, isn't that a hydroxy gas electrolyzer ala Bob Boyce?? I mention that partially out of safety though I am sure you are well aware of danger of off gassing and potential for explosion/implosion whatever it may be. Still I think it was John K mentioning the things bubble like mad while charging and so I am just wondering are you also making hydroxy whilst you charge!!??

Lastly i just came across this site http://www.thomastownsendbrown.com/library.htm a few days back trying to find good info on T. Townsend Brown. Haven't gone through a tenth of it but it is blowing me away. You might enjoy the section on Petrovoltaics, it gave me something to put on the to-do list.

I will try to just answer your questions off the top of my head here, we can dig deeper later on if you want.

1)First is just how are you doing software/hardware all the battery tracking and graphing, that's really cool.
I am currently using DataQ meter. Yaro turned me on to these meters. Prior to this I used to use radio shack USB digital multi meters.

https://www.dataq.com/

2)2) Do you have a guesstimate for how these cells now compare power density wise to lead acid? Not to rain on a parade but I would have to guess that Bedini charged lead acids will last a heck of a long time so are you looking for superior durability, power density or just having fun, learning and seeing what you see?

They are not as dense, not sure on a scale wise but less dense. The thing is though that they are also much lighter without all of that lead. So you have a rather large container to deal with but it's not nearly as heavy. I agree that regular Bedini tech on LA does make them last along time however eventually your going to loose the red lead no matter what. These NiFe have no such material to be concerned with, the metals do not break down in the solution at all. Another thing you may not have considered is that the NiFe can be partially charged, over charged, over discharged without ANY issues, no lead battery puts up with this kind of abuse for long. There are other things to consider but those will spring up as this thread develops, I will say that I believe these cells to have advantages with Bedini technology that is unique.

3)3) Are the only things in these batteries, nickel, iron and KOH??
Yes that is it. Some manufactures add a very small amount of lithium but I asked David at Iron core specifecly about this with his batteries and he said NO we tried that and did not see enough of an improvement to warrant using it. He was pretty clear that they do not use any lithium in theirs. He also seemed concerned for the environment in cases where people do add it, for him that's a bad idea.

4)4) If you are running a current between two plates with KOH as an electrolyte while charging, isn't that a hydroxy gas electrolyzer ala Bob Boyce?? I mention that partially out of safety though I am sure you are well aware of danger of off gassing and potential for explosion/implosion whatever it may be. Still I think it was John K mentioning the things bubble like mad while charging and so I am just wondering are you also making hydroxy whilst you charge!!??

Yes you are exactly right. As a matter of fact I have seen where some people further increase their efficiency by harvesting the off-gas and using it too. That is far beyond the scope of this thread but many clever things can be done with browns gas.

I just got home so I have not had time to follow your link so I cannot comment on that..

@Group,
I will be shooting another video tonight hopefully. I have done a few runs since the last and they are promising. I reduced my draw to a more reasonable level and only ran 10AH total draw on one, got like 8AH back out on the discharge but that was running down to 9.5v cut-off. I do not have enough consistancy in my testing yet to say really for sure about things so I didn't want to post about it. This next run I am thinking to try a mode one charge.

[BobZilla]

Hello group,

Here is the battery manual provided by James:

https://1drv.ms/w/s!AmzmftzD-V0mhwKZTtRxchWdVBzl

[John_Koorn]

Thanks for the manual Bob. I had to laugh at this wonderful piece of Chinglish:

"Battery in the use of professional personnel should be responsible for the charging current accurate and sufficient charging time, otherwise, the battery will be charged with electricity."

John K.

[BobZilla]

That cracks me up too John. I didn't notice that in particular but as I was skimming through I did notice.

So Group I am back with a charge run to share. This one is done in mode 1 and it was drawing roughly half an amp. I do make some commts in the video saying that perhaps I was running too weak and that 1A may be better suited and I may be right about that but once I started the discharge it looks better than I was expecting. It is nowhere near finished yet so I don't know how we are going to do in the end but it's looking decent so far.

Once the discharge finishes I will post the chart for that.

Here is the charge chart and the video:



https://1drv.ms/v/s!AmzmftzD-V0mhwNTMNkRBeE0w4f5

*EDIT*

Adding the discharge chart here, the green line is this one. The red is from a a previous test.

So obviously this was not such a great run on these batteries. I don't think it was all that bad but I should have been pulling a bit more into those coils. I will do another mode one later on, I'm sure we can get better results.

[ZPDM]

Many thx for answering all my questions, sounds like you didn't have enough oompf on the last charge cycle.

[BobZilla]

Many thx for answering all my questions, sounds like you didn't have enough oompf on the last charge cycle.

Yea they also are not broken in yet. I was probably a little to eager in posting, people like to see perfection. They are doing a lot better now but it gets old fast trying to record and post all the time. I still have a boatload more to work on. Don't let that last run fool you though , these are great batteries.

[BobZilla]

Here is a discharge chart from last night. Notice they still had not hit the cliff, this was a half amp pull down to 10v.