2 SSG's output to same charge battery?

[jelloir]

Hi All,

So I'm running my SSG's again and wondered if it's safe to put a single battery on the output of 2 SSG wheels. I'm keen to rejuvenate some larger old batteries so figured this might be an effective way to hit them with more pulses but not sure of the effect of out of sync spikes traveling back to either SSG.

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Jelloir,

I once tried running a second SSG from a battery being charged by another SSG and it didn't work. As best I recall, the SSG that was charging the battery slowed down and stalled.

Using two SSGs to charge the same battery would be different than what I tried. Only way to know for sure is try it and then report back your results. I don't think you'd blow anything up as long as the battery is able to absorb the charge and is not a complete boat anchor.

Gary Hammond,

[jelloir]

Ok so I tried it and can report that its all fine! I think the battery i'm testing with has a dead cell but not a total boat anchor. Both SSG's running happily and no blown transistors! Attached is a pic. This is great and gives me more things to do whilst indoors!

[BobZilla]

Only my thought on this question....Not trying to ruffle anyone's feathers...

Go back to fundamentals of the technology in your thinking..

POTENTIAL,, it's all about it

Current,,, it's NOT about it.....

Issue 1:
By presenting two signals of variable potential (suppose one machine spikes 112 volts, the other 150 volts),,, it would be fine as long as the two signals were systematically segregated but this is not what you will be doing. More likely is at least in some cyclical phase they WILL present synchronously and think what happens with potential of different amplitude,,, absorption from high to low. You would be reducing the high potential of both signals into a flattened result of each.

Issue 2:
I do not doubt that putting two machines on shows faster results but this is from the fundamental current increase. All of these machines function with a small bit of current, there is no way around it but the magic happens from the high potential of the spike, the small current is only a carrier for that signal. If you double the current by doubling the machines operating then of course there is an increase but it is from conventional current.

Issue 3:
Building upon the first two issues you get into a problem with the spike quickness. You want that high potential to be as quick and sharp as possible. When the two signals collide you have the extended on time... Signal 1 fires alone,,short delay and signal 2 fires,, the energy bridges between the two lowering the potential,, signal one cuts off,, slight delay and then signal 2 cuts off,, sort of like this ,,, single---mixed----single instead of just a fast single on/off from one. The whole thing is in opposition in my view of the properties we seek to get the best performance,, adds current and on time both of which Mr Bedini consistently told us are undesirable properties.

Also in that short period of overlap between the signals most if not all of the energy exchange is happening dis associated from the battery because of the resistance of the battery vs the resistance between the two potentials on spike. It will get some of it but most will be lost in balancing act, an exchange between these circuits rather than an exchange between an isolated spike and the battery,, think of it like a leak ahead of the battery.

[jelloir]

Hey BobZilla Hope your well and thanks for taking the time to remind me of all of this.

I was trying to rejuvenate some batteries with the dual SSG setup and hadn't bothered to really tune them. I found that I wasn't seeing any significant gains because as you mention they are probably just pushing current and signal's getting mixed. So anyway... I decided to tune my 8 strand SSG (the smaller one) yesterday and have it running at 567 RPM at 1.1A draw against a 65AH battery that is need of some reconditioning.

I''m noticing some interesting things with the charge run in regard to drops, peaks and variability in the charge. I recall John talking about this as the impedance changes in the battery. I'd be keen for your comments on it. The point being is the charge looks more like its allowing the process to occur as opposed to being forced and the charge curve contains lots of changes in voltage compared to a typical current charge.

Here is the run so far:

Edit: I should point out the big changes near the start of the run are me tuning the resistor and coil/magnet gap



And here is a zoom of an interesting section (there are many like this):



BTW, I'd almost forgot about how the SSG's speed up at night. I woke up at 3AM so decided to check on the run and it was running at 588RPM. This morning its back to 567. I could even hear the difference when I checked it at 3AM.

Again, thanks for the reminder about these machines. It's all to easy to want to see "immediate" gains.

[BobZilla]

In my opinion there are two possible causes for what your seeing there.

Most likely it is this one... Yea it's the impedance of the battery but more specifically it is exactly what you are wanting to see as the plates are getting cleaned. I have seen pretty much exactly the same thing on charts for batteries that I am restoring. Once the battery is restored it will stop doing that, conversely if you put a known good one on there you should not see it which might be a good way to narrow down for sure.

A second possibility is that you happen to be tuned right on the edge of where you slip from one "gear" to another which I think you know what I mean but it's when your going from a single spike to a double, or a double to a triple or the other way a double to a single etc. Your resistance on the pot if set right on the edge could shift as the voltage on the primary drops over time. If you really want to get to the bottom of it you could test with another clean battery and see. As I said already though I think it is probably just your plates cleaning up.

When dealing with dirty plates one thing I have always found helpful is to get a full charge on the battery first or at least as best as you can get on it. Take it off the machine and run a heavy load on it for only about 2 minutes. I'm talking about something like 2 to 4 amps at least. Then back on the machine until you hit peak again, rinse and repeat. Your basically just playing with the top charge, max it then pull a bit, then max it again. Not doing full discharge cycles but just pushing and pulling at the top. This will accelerate the process of cleaning those plates.

[jelloir]

I did happen to do some runs on a known good battery and the curve was smooth so in my case it certainly looks like the older battery is getting cleaned up. The machine is indeed running with a single pulse per magnet.

I'm going to give the method you mentioned a try. Do you have any advise on rejuvenating batteries that are too big for the SSG? This 65AH won't get to 15V even in good shape I doubt, so I'm wondering if I should push it as high as the SSG can push it and then perhaps put it on my Solar Tracker to try and push it up more?

Thanks once again for your advice.

[BobZilla]

You do not need to get to 15v to be effective. I know, I know, I know,, people will incessantly go on about it but it is a misconception. Originally Mr. Bedini was giving general advice and mostly instructions for garden batteries as that is what he wanted people to learn on. The machine he wanted people to learn on had no problem getting a garden battery to hit 15v but this is not law written in stone.

The ONLY reason a machine that CAN push a garden battery that high but can NOT push a larger battery that high is the carrier signal (current) we spoke about already. Again it is the spikes which are between 90 to 150 volts that do the work. It is far more important to watch your curve on your chart. You will have the long slow climb,then about 2/3 in you will see the steep climb, and the last phase is the leveling off. On a garden battery this is usually going to be 15v but a larger one may be 14.5, 14.2 or some such level. What is important is that the chart is showing you that you have gone through those 3 stages and are at the top.

When a battery is fully charged it takes very little current to raise the voltage, in the case of a large battery you ARE fully charged but lacking a sufficient amount of current to push it to the 15v you want to see. I doubt I am explaining this very well but it is just a matter of understanding what is happening.

EDIT:
Just to put a little more logic to what I am telling you consider this. If you were to take a smaller battery like a motorcycle one or even a small emergency light batttery and do a run on it you will likely see it top at 16v or more. This is because the current provided will push it that high on such a small battery. I am not talking about massive current as in traditional charges, but as I said before you see high voltage spikes ride in on a small bit of current.

You can also learn a lot about this by comparing what happens when you put two in parallel on the back vs one or two in series on the back vs two in parallel.The 24 series will still only require the same current and will go high because of the potential difference in the spike vs the 24v.

[jelloir]

Your explaining it well. I did ponder this some time back when I was doing COP testing on my machines. Would the image below capture what your trying to explain in that the current almost gives you this artificial "ceiling" of the charge?

[BobZilla]

I'm not getting it from your picture but that does not mean what your thinking as you draw it is not correct.

I learned a lot of things because of my various experiments. I built large multi coils, small multi's, singles, dozens of solid state builds etc.. I don't say it to boast but what I mean is you do not see the relationships that exist without seeing them interact within a variety of context.

[BobZilla]

Looking at your picture again and I think maybe you did get it right but the squiggle in between was throwing me off.

Say the top line is a chart of a garden battery, yes perfect.
Lets put a made up number on teh current just to highlight what I am saying. Lets say the machine is pushing 50ma of current with 100v spikes. So it will bring a small battery when fully charged to 15v.

The line on the bottom is a large battery, also perfect. The difference being that the 50ma of current will not push the voltage all the way as high. It's the same machine running the same tuning the only difference being the size of the back end battery. That picture minus the squiggles would be exactly what I am saying.

To further elaborate on this effect of the small amount of current a bit understand that it's only when the battery has reached a full charge that this kind of sensitivity will matter. To put it another way you could see this if you took two or even better three or four batteries of different sizes that are fully charges and put them on for a few min. You would see the smaller one will have higher voltage and the larger one less voltage. It's not the actual voltage of the battery anyway really becaue when you remove them from the machine they all will settle to their actual voltage. When the machine is connected the top voltage is acting more like a pressure valve in a way, showing with X amount of force I will rise to X voltage.

EDIT:
Also noticed that one of your batteries looks like it might be a gel cel, is the one you showed with the whacky chart a gel cell by chance?

Maybe it's not but just so you know gel cells can really be pain because bubbles can form between the plate and the gel. This denies the electrolyte it's ability to transfer from that plate section, effectively it presents like a dirty plate.

[jelloir]

Ha, you know, I thought about leaving the squiggle out. Yes, what your saying is what I tried to convey. Although I was talking about the same 65AH battery that the SSG can't push to 15V, but thats not the point, its just the difference you see when your pushing current to a battery vs potential - well... for a larger battery its certainly more obvious. Thanks for taking the time to clarify that.

The battery in the pic is from when I started the machines up again after a hiatus. On the output is an older car battery and the input is an as new smaller flooded cell car battery.