Quiet1's SG build

[quiet1]

Battery Conditioning using the Capacitor Discharge Circuit

Note: Occasionally I will get in a certain mood when I write. The words and ideas flow easily and the result can be quite - interesting. This happened while working up this post. It certainly isn’t the usual thing you will see here on the forum, but if it gives a chuckle, then why not. So with apologies in advance, please enjoy the latest episode of our Superhero Investigator:

(As is common today, we begin with a brief flashback for context)

Previously we watched our Superhero Investigator carefully study the battery charging characteristics from SG radiant mode spikes. His findings: Yes, batteries charge faster after repeated cycling from radiant spikes. At the end of that episode we were left with the question: Will this effect also show up with batteries charged from a capacitor discharge circuit?

(After opening credits and music we return to the Investigator’s Lair…)

For this test we note that the SG is in Generator (common ground) mode. The SG output is directed to the input of the capacitor discharge circuit. The cap discharge output goes to the charge battery. As before, the Arduino is wired to monitor the charge battery voltage. However, due to the large voltage swings from the capacitor discharges, the Arduino’s input filter was changed to include a much larger (2,000 uF larger) filter capacitor. Although we can’t see it directly, we the viewers somehow know that the Arduino’s software is the same as that used in the earlier battery conditioning tests.

The Investigator double checks the connections, applies power, gives the wheel a spin, and … waits. As before, the Arduino charges the battery until the voltage stabilizes, turns power off, allows the battery to rest for 4 hours, discharges the battery to 12.5 volts, and concludes with another battery rest.

(This is not exciting to watch.)

As soon as convenient, the Investigator repeats the process for a total of 9 times. Each time the Arduino dutifully collects battery voltage data every 10 seconds and saves it to the SD card.

At last the data is in. Only a little spreadsheet post processing is required. Soon we will know the answer to this auspicious inquiry…

(The scene changes to the World’s Investigator Awards ceremony, held in a large auditorium. Esteemed and Learned men and women are seated on stage. Fellow investigators and fans fill the auditorium. The master of ceremonies is speaking.)

“In the category of battery charging we have one nominee. It is my great honor to present to you the findings of ‘accelerated charging using a capacitor discharge circuit.’ The envelop, please.”

(The audience is silent in anticipation. The MC opens the envelop.)

“Contained herein is but one chart. I display it below for your viewing. From the charge lines on the left, we see clearly that yes, the charge times do indeed decrease with each cycle. This is truly an outstanding replication of the monumental conditioning effect in battery charging knowledge.”

The crowd breaks into applause. The Esteemed and Learned men and women nod in approval.

Then a lone voice from the rear of the auditorium is heard.

“But look at the discharge times! They decrease also! What good is that?!”

The auditorium is again silent as everyone reexamins the chart. Yes, the discharge times do indeed decrease each cycle, with each cycle maintaining approximately the same charge/discharge ratio.

The crowd boos and yells insults. The Esteemed and Learned men and women are outraged.
“What shoddy work!”
“How could this have passed the peer review process?”
“We gave up $300 in research funding for this?!”

Our Superhero Investigator would be in grave physical danger if not for watching remotely on Zoom.

“Oh dear, Where did I go wrong?” he wonders. “Could this be as simple as picking the wrong voltage limits? Or could Mother Nature be giving faster charging while taking away discharge time?”
“I Must Think.”
“I Must Investigate!”

(scene fades to closing credits and music)

[quiet1]

Battery Conditioning, continued

I’m happy to report that I’m back to normal - whatever that may be these days.

But the last post did prompt me to revisit the data from the battery conditioning testing done with radiant pulses only (standard mode, no cap dump). The graph below shows the same data set, but with the X axis expanded to show the discharge part of the cycles. As you may recall, the charge time decreased each cycle. But much to my surprise, the charge time to discharge time ratio remains constant. My interpretation is that the battery’s AHr capacity is decreasing with this “conditioning.” This is not the impression I got while reading Chapter 6 of the Intermediate Handbook.

Back about 20 years ago when I was reading about Bedini technology, people were talking quite a lot about battery conditioning. At that time it took about a month of continuous cycling for the conditioning effects to appear. Also, it took about 1 month of resting for the effect to disappear rather than the 100 hours described in the Intermediate Handbook.

So I have battery questions for the wise elders here.
1) Is this temporary reduction in AHr capacity a normal thing?
2) Is the quick conditioning (~4 cycles) currently described the same thing as the slow conditioning (~1 month) described years ago?
3) What happens with continued cycling? Does the capacity go very low and then get larger again with negative energy?
4) Are there any other relevant items to note about this?

Many Thanks in advance!

[quiet1]

Real Measurements

It has been an interesting year - masks, hand sanitizer, and not knowing where the next roll of toilet paper is coming from. In hindsight it would have been a great time to run the wheel for extended periods but life tends to get in the way.

I have restarted the project albeit with lower intensity. One of my first studies was a spin-down test on the wheel. With the coil removed, I spun the wheel as fast as possible using a finger-in-the-spoke technique - about 165 rpm. The wheel came to rest in 6 minutes 13 seconds - averaged over 4 runs.

From what I can gather my wheel does not spin as long as some other machines without fans. Units with fans come to a rest in less time than mine. This is tentative as the initial wheel speed is often not given.

I wonder how important this detail really is. I’ve read that some experimenters get great results without fans while others get great results with fans. Lacking more information I’ll keep things as they are: No fans and loose bearings lubed with lightweight oil.

The next test was to measure electrical COP. I used generator / common ground mode with a cap dump circuit. After about 10 charge and discharge cycles on the charge (output) battery I followed the procedure given elsewhere in the forum:

Charge the battery with the SG to 15.2 volts
Allow the battery to rest for 2 hours
Discharge 1 amp-hour from the battery at a C/20 rate
Allow the battery to rest for 2 hours
Charge the battery with the SG to 15.2, noting the time required and the SG input current.

While I was not expecting a high COP, my result of 0.30 was disappointing. Upon reflection, my machine has several items that make it sub-optimal
* Wiring is done with 18 ga wire instead of 12 ga
* The input ammeter stays in the circuit all the time
* I’m using U1 size lawn and garden flooded batteries - inexpensive but they may not perform as well as others
* The run (input) battery is being continuously slow charged with a 3 amp hot charger
* The charge (output) battery may no be sufficiently conditioned for good results
* The output battery is probably being charged well above C/20 since the wheel needs more than that to keep running
* The magnet to coil airgap may not be optimal
* Perhaps something else that I’ve missed

The question now arises: Shall I spend time and money optimizing this SG unit? Or shall I pursue one of the curious “anomalies” that this SG has already demonstrated?

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Quiet1,

The question now arises: Shall I spend time and money optimizing this SG unit?

Forget about COP for a while. Optimization, however, is always important whatever you are trying to accomplish with the device. The SSG is, first of all, just a tool to teach the builder some new, observable phenomena not properly taught in the universities. The machine is only part of the experiment. The batteries are the other very important part of the device.

Changing from 18ga wire to 12ga is inexpensive and will greatly improve results. Minimum impedance (resistance) is important. Wheel speed and air gap will also need to be maximized for best performance. Try using Tri-Flow on the bearings instead of light oil. Make sure the wheel is as perfectly balanced as you can get it. Very little monetary investment is required for these steps, but
some time investment will be required. Bypass the ammeter except when taking measurements. (Keep impedance as low as possible!)

Hot charging is never good for any battery and rates should always be kept below C20. The batteries you are using are the same type John Bedini used in all his demonstrations of the device.

Experiment with air gap, base resistance, and RPM to learn more about your particular setup. An O-scope can help you visualize what's happening, but is not really necessary in the beginning.

Or shall I pursue one of the curious “anomalies” that this SG has already demonstrated?

Which curious "anomalies" have you already observed?

There is much to learn if you invest time experimenting with the machine, various batteries, and various circuit arrangements. Have fun experimenting!

Gary Hammond,

[psiegers]

Hi quiet1,
yes it's been a turbulent year to say the least...!
I must say I've read through this thread with a lot of interest - great reading stuff.

You've set out almost the same as me back in March this year when I decided to build my first SG, although I opted to build a combination of several schema's that I've read about.
I know I'm really late to the party but am very interested in having a system where multiple batteries keep charging others while running the machine.
I'd really like to build a next version which does the same but solid state and can charge batteries better - my current SG charges very slowly.

I also really liked the way you have conducted your testing along the way and based on your findings, I still want to continue working with my SG, especially the measuring part - because there's still a lot to learn there.

I also started a thread on this forum and while adding more information I really would like to get some advice on what my next steps could be.
You have actually answered some of them, thanks for that - like measuring both batteries voltage/current by using a logging shield together with some other components and simple graphs - I'm impressed and seriously thinking of building one myself too - awesome!

About your 4 questions, I'd like very much to answer them - yet I'm not an expert although my first SG build did and is teaching me a lot - but I may try answer them just a little bit - as I do suspect the answers may well have to do with the chemical reactions and plate material and how those react to the type of current we apply to them.
What I can say after reading all three books multiple times, having seen Peter Lindemann's lectures on batteries and how they work, is (as Gary also commented, and JB, and Peter) that a battery should not be charged and discharged at the same time. This is because while charging, and especially when pulsed, the battery chemistry is restored, like in a reversed way. The ions that combined on the plates are heavy and strong pulses will move them back into the electrolyte and there the magic restore process happens if all other necessary ions and substances are present. While discharging, those heavy ions will be pushed towards the plates and therefore both processes - charging and discharging - don't go well together.

About COP, I think it is interesting to know what the input consumes versus what the output produces, but as both JB and Peter have said so many times, the value of the SG is in the exceptional way it charges the battery.

Now, with your findings on the discharge rate (after having been charged fully and a short rest period) that this also was reduced (quicker discharge) is interesting because the books don't mention that AFAIK. Again, this may have to do with the chemistry, the processes of sulfuric ions interacting with the Pb and PbO2 plates, which is normally (I guess) a very random and chaotic process. Maybe, with the (more) structured way we now discharge and charge the batteries (in resting position!), they somehow get 'optimized' for this type of charging?

This could be visualized with operating a transparent battery where we could research what exactly happens on both types of plates. Also, different battery types will react differently upon this specific dis-/charging processes. With a transparent battery we could visually see what really happens at both plates. I remember on one specific lecture of Peter that one attendant mentioned that he had looked at both plates, and that he noticed that one of the plates was like perfectly clean (don't remember which one). While Peter has said several times that both plates are affected.

Whatever the answers are to your questions, it is clear they are very thoughtful questions, and are in close relation with what the SG actually does to those batteries.
Only more thorough testing will reveal more about what actually is going on.

So yeah, like Gary wrote, keep up the good work by doing more exhaustive testing on your SG which apparently is working very well and telling us about it - mine on the other hand still needs to produce some more 'juice' on the output to charge those big Trojan batteries that I bought like 5 years ago (they are charged by a solar charger which never reached the P part where the charging cycle should end shortly after when that happens) and they are now (of course) almost completely 'forceless' - but should therefore be good candidates for rejuvenation according to Peter's comments. So still continuing my efforts.

Have a good one.
pjotterkjen

[quiet1]

Hi pjotterkjen,

Welcome to the party. It is good to see someone joining the effort with a new build. I hope that you will be able to advance our knowledge in this field.

I have also tried to charge large batteries with the SG. In my case it was two golf cart batteries in series (6 volts, 210 AHr each). After running the SG for 40 hours there was very little change in battery voltage. The SG doesn’t play well with big batteries.

All the best with your project. I look forward to following your progress.

[quiet1]

Hi Gary,

Which curious "anomalies" have you already observed?

The big anomaly that has my current interest is battery behavior to pulse/radiant charging. In the plots above, it is clear that something (“conditioning”) is happening. I’ll leave the why to someone good with electrochemistry. I’m wondering what steps can be taken to optimize this behavior, and what are the practical limits.

I’m considering moving my studies to a solid state design very similar to the circuit shown in John Bedini’s patent US 7990110, figure 2. See excerpt below. A good control circuit (#52) and fast switching transistor (#44) could give great flexibility in pulse frequency and duty cycle without the limitations of a mechanical wheel. I’m thinking of this as focusing on a part of the SG rather than abandoning the current project.

Thanks for the ideas and encouragement!

[Gary Hammond]

Hi quiet1,

The big anomaly that has my current interest is battery behavior to pulse/radiant charging. In the plots above, it is clear that something (“conditioning”) is happening. I’ll leave the why to someone good with electrochemistry. I’m wondering what steps can be taken to optimize this behavior, and what are the practical limits.

I thought I knew something about batteries, until I read Peter Lindemann's book "Battery Secrets". I highly recommend reading this to anyone experimenting with the SSG. Peter explains the electrochemistry in easy to understand detail. Here's a link to the digital download. https://emediapress.com/shop/battery-secrets/

Gary Hammond,

[quiet1]

Hi Gary,

Turns out I already have that video - I found it hiding in a deep dark corner of the hard drive. I will review it soon.
Thanks for the tip.

Quiet1

[quiet1]

Per a recent request, I am attaching the 3D printer files (.STL) for the printed parts in my SG unit. (see below) It is in two zip files due to file size limits.

Please note a few items:
1) My printer bed is 8 x 10 inches. Several parts won’t fit on a smaller printer.
2) The parts with names that start with “double” are used to hold the top and bottom of the vertical wheel supports together. Use #4 machine screws to hold it all together.
3) Print several of each spool spacer/shim - both 0.100 inch thick and 0.125 thick. This is how to change the magnet to coil air gap.
4) Print 4 spool holders. Along with #4 screws, they hold the coil, spacers, and base together.
5) The side supports have an extra mounting eye/hole on the bottom in case you want to attach the SG solidly to something.
6) The front panel is a sheet of aluminum, hence is not in the printed parts list.
7) I used PLA material with 20% to 30% infill, .2mm layer height.
8) The completed unit has more flex than one made of wood. This requires the wheel to be very well balanced, both in rotation and side-to-side. (My wheel is good in rotation but there must be a magnet or two that isn’t centered on the rim - at high speed the arms wobble significantly.)


A question also came up about the software I use in the arduino. Posting my “spaghetti code” may not be of much help, depending on what you want to do and how your unit is wired. Instead, please (re)review post #10 above. Of special note is Adafruit’s datalogger tutorial, here:
https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-...hield?view=all
The example code is a great place to start your software.

Another resource that may be helpful is the “Arduino Cookbook” by Michael Margolis. I prefer the 1st edition.

While reviewing my notes for this post I came across a couple of missed details that you may find helpful:
1) The arduino analog input is 0 to 5 volts only. Measuring a 12 volt battery safely requires a voltage divider. This is easily placed on the breadboard area of the datalogger shield. My divider uses a 3k resistor (connected to the battery) and a 1.3k resistor (connected to ground). Both are ? watt. Have your software multiply the reading by about 3.3x to get the correct voltage reading. (Your magic multiplier number will be unique.)
2) Charging with pulses makes the battery voltage “noisy,” especially when using a cap dump circuit. Getting a good steady reading requires a filter capacitor between the voltage divider and the arduino analog input. My unit has about 2100uF of low voltage (~10v) capacitors, also placed on the breadboard area.

I hope this helps!
Quiet1

SG STL1.zip
SG STL2.zip

[quiet1]

That was quite a pyrotechnics display…

After considering your comments, I decided to continue working to optimize my bicycle wheel SG. A few days ago I was in the process of starting up the wheel to get new baseline measurements. Things were going just as they have many times before. But this time, as the wheel was transitioning from double switching to single switching there was a loud Pop noise. Looking down, I saw an inch-long flame coming out of a large FET on the cap dump board. Yikes! The flame continued for two or three seconds before extinguishing. Fortunately nothing caught fire, but it did take a day for the smell to leave the house.

Obviously, my machine is now down for repairs. When I get it going again I have many ideas and improvements to test. I expect this testing to take quite some time, perhaps all winter. Check back in a few months for any updates and test results.

Thanks for the encouragement and helpful guidance!