Misc. Advanced Bedini Questions

[jd_zinke@hotmail.com]

I would appreciate your suggestions/experience on the following questions:

1.) I do not have the JB Comparator at this time. With that in mind, where, on the TeslagenX 8 channel board, do the 3 wires connect that go to the SPST SSG/Generator switch?

2.) Am I more likely to blow a transistor by putting an analog Amp gauge, connected with 10AWG wire, in the charge circuit?

3.) Does putting an analog Volt gauge across the charge output increase the risk of: a. blowing a transistor; b. affect the charging/radiant energy going to the battery?

4.) What would be considered starting points to set the gaps between the wheel and a. the Power coil; b. the Generator coil?

5.) Can the Generator coil be made with one continuous length of #16 magnet wire that is walked 100 ft. between two stakes, to make the 10 loops, then twisted to make the cable? After twisting, the cable will shorten to less than 100ft. Is that OK?

6.) What voltage and current ranges should I expect from the Generator coil?

7.) Should I just go ahead and build-in a large full-wave rectifier and a large electrolytic cap to improve the performance of the Generator coil?

8.) If you had your choice of the Comparator or the Linear Amp, which would
you add first?

Regards,
J.D.

[Aaron Murakami]

1. Tom could have to comment on that.

2. Putting an amp gauge to show the output pulses? That won't really show what the output is anyway, but is just an indicator for a reference point. The demo model Peter built for last year's conference has the meter showing the output of the comparator and it works just fine.

3. Anything you put on the output path will affect the radiant going to the battery - with having a meter there, probably too small to notice a difference. You can see the huge difference if you have a diode that is too slow to let out the spike compared to a fast one, you can see 2-3 times increase in what goes to the battery by having the right diode compared to one that is insufficient. I'm not saying the right diode increases your output multi times, but having one too slow can cut the output by double or more. If you're using a comparator circuit, I wouldn't put a volt meter on the output necessarily, but you can meter the voltage on the caps with a scope just fine.

4. Just trial and error - will be difference for each build but you can start with a gap the same thickness as one magnet. Get it up to full speed for that gap then open and close it until you find what the fastest speed is and leave it there. Do that before going to the gen coil so you at least know the motoring side is optimized. So keep the gen coil gap at max while tuning the power coil gap.

5. You can make it with one winding. Peter and I wound the gen coil on the demo unit he built with 10 wires I believe, then we just put them in series. If you're not planning on cutting the ends then putting each winding in series with the next, you'll have half the wire going in one direction and half the other - don't know what you're talking about unless you cut the ends then series each winding. Make sense?

6. You'd have to check the advanced book for the gen coil specs. I don't recall what the final specs were. We did all kinds of experiments with the coil. There are also ways to short the coil at the right time to greatly increase the voltage and decrease drag at the right point, but we didn't even get into that because we were focused on explaining what John's own experiments were and not ours. Anyway, I think those specs are in the book of what we got from the gen coil.

7. That is something you just have to run the experiment to learn what works best.

8. That depends on your goals. At least both converts the spikes to forward normal energy so that the battery you're charging will be compatible with other normal chargers.

[sergejfa]

Hi Aaron
how can i measure the voltage on the caps with a scope?

[jd_zinke@hotmail.com]

Advanced Model Questions

Thanks for your ideas and suggestions, Aaron. I'm changing some of my original design by placing an Amp meter on the low-drag generator output, rather than the Charging output. After tuning the energizer, I want to continue to expand its capabilities. Depending on the low-drag generator's output that is compatible with keeping the wheel spinning, I may put a full wave rectifier and cap on its output and see if I can leverage a 30 v output. This would be enough, with an MPPT solar controller, to improve current output for charging a 12v Capacitor battery that will be the primary battery. Experimenting with this combo will determine if there's enough low-drag generator power to not have to switch primary batteries. Your's, Tom's & Eric's feedback have gotten my build moving again.

[James McDonald]

Thanks for your ideas and suggestions, Aaron. I'm changing some of my original design by placing an Amp meter on the low-drag generator output, rather than the Charging output. After tuning the energizer, I want to continue to expand its capabilities. Depending on the low-drag generator's output that is compatible with keeping the wheel spinning, I may put a full wave rectifier and cap on its output and see if I can leverage a 30 v output. This would be enough, with an MPPT solar controller, to improve current output for charging a 12v Capacitor battery that will be the primary battery. Experimenting with this combo will determine if there's enough low-drag generator power to not have to switch primary batteries. Your's, Tom's & Eric's feedback have gotten my build moving again.

Hi JD --

I made a generator coil for the SG Machine as described in the Advanced Book and my voltage output depended on the
RPM of the wheel itself and gap between the coil's core and the spinning magnets on the wheel. At 250 RPM I was seeing
13.5 volts AC. When I stepped up the wheel RPMs to 330 RPM using resistance on the trigger coil I was able to get 18.5 volts
AC. I did make a full wave diode bridge with a large capacitor on its output to smooth out the AC to a DC and the voltage is
close to the same with no load. Measuring the voltage output with 5 super bright LED's loading the supply I was seeing only
7.5 volts DC. Hope this information helps.

James

[jd_zinke@hotmail.com]

Generator Coil

Hi JD --

I made a generator coil for the SG Machine as described in the Advanced Book and my voltage output depended on the
RPM of the wheel itself and gap between the coil's core and the spinning magnets on the wheel. At 250 RPM I was seeing
13.5 volts AC. When I stepped up the wheel RPMs to 330 RPM using resistance on the trigger coil I was able to get 18.5 volts
AC. I did make a full wave diode bridge with a large capacitor on its output to smooth out the AC to a DC and the voltage is
close to the same with no load. Measuring the voltage output with 5 super bright LED's loading the supply I was seeing only
7.5 volts DC. Hope this information helps.

James

Thanks, James. I'm surmising that you are using the 8 tranny board and 8/20 gauge power & 1/23 gauge trigger strands, twisted 130 ft. coil.......

1.) Are you using the 18 ceramic magnet configuration?

2.) Based on your results, I'm going to create a spool that is 3/4" wider than the Advanced manual describes. That should extend the rod pickup area slightly passed the magnet width for a little more flux area and voltage. That may require care in selecting/increasing the gap distance

3.) Instead of 10 windings, I'm going to go for 12 to see if that will also increase the output voltage. I don't want to cause too much inductance or wheel drag.

4.) When you were twisting the strands into one cable, did it seem that the cable got a lot shorter? Is that OK? I'm wondering I need to make each strand 110 ft to compensate for the shortening.....

5.) When you finished winding your coil what method did you use to separate each strand-pair to determine the coil windings were all identified as going in the same directions? Why I'm a little confused, is in the Advanced book it says that the wound coil strans are the same as a single 1,000 ft piece of wire. Based on Arron's reply, if the strans remain as loops in a series, some coils will be reversed electrically, impacting the performance. A picture in the book seems to show some splicing was required. How did you determine how to connect the ends so as to get all the coils the same polarity??

6.) What was the total resistance of the trigger resistors that you settled on, during tuning, to reduce the trigger voltage and gain RPM?? Did you add/use the momentary press-and-hold button to get the wheel RPM up to max speed??

7.) Did you add/use the SPDT switch to be able to change between SSG or Common Ground mode?

8.) What was your primary battery Amp draw at 250 RPM; at 330RPM??

[James McDonald]

Hi JD --


Thanks, James. I'm surmising that you are using the 8 tranny board and 8/20 gauge power & 1/23 gauge trigger strands, twisted 130 ft. coil.......

Yes, I am using the standard coil and 8 transistor PCA from TeslaGenx.

1.) Are you using the 18 ceramic magnet configuration?

No, My configuration is using the 21 magnets of #8 ceramic type.

2.) Based on your results, I'm going to create a spool that is 3/4" wider than the Advanced manual describes. That should extend the rod pickup area slightly passed the magnet width for a little more flux area and voltage. That may require care in selecting/increasing the gap distance

3.) Instead of 10 windings, I'm going to go for 12 to see if that will also increase the output voltage. I don't want to cause too much inductance or wheel drag.

This would be a nice experiment to add 2 more 100 foot windings. I hope you have two other guys to help in winding this coil.
To make the 10 winding coil with the increased core size I used my coil winding apparatus and two other guys. One person on
the drill. One person slowing moving the apparatus on a cart and another in the middle of the coil strands making sure it was
staying tight. Twelve 16 gauge wires will be an under taking for sure. With the extra 200 foot of wire you should be able to
create a bigger "B" field. This should create a higher AC voltage on the output of the coil.

4.) When you were twisting the strands into one cable, did it seem that the cable got a lot shorter? Is that OK? I'm wondering I need to make each strand 110 ft to compensate for the shortening.....

The 10 coil windings did get a bit shorter but I also did add only an extra 2 foot to each 100 foot strand.

5.) When you finished winding your coil what method did you use to separate each strand-pair to determine the coil windings were all identified as going in the same directions? Why I'm a little confused, is in the Advanced book it says that the wound coil strans are the same as a single 1,000 ft piece of wire. Based on Arron's reply, if the strans remain as loops in a series, some coils will be reversed electrically, impacting the performance. A picture in the book seems to show some splicing was required. How did you determine how to connect the ends so as to get all the coils the same polarity??

I was also confused with the wiring up of the 10 strands of wire to make the 1000 foot coil. First attempt at this I did wire the coil up wrong. If you wire the coil wrong you will know when you get to the last two wires due to the coil wires cannot be on the same side. The book really should have a picture of this as to how they wired the coil. They used a connector so it hides the wiring criss cross back and forth. Make sure that wire one is from the middle or start of the coil and the 10th or 12th wire in your case is from the outside end of the coil when the wiring is done.

6.) What was the total resistance of the trigger resistors that you settled on, during tuning, to reduce the trigger voltage and gain RPM?? Did you add/use the momentary press-and-hold button to get the wheel RPM up to max speed??

The total resistance that I had was 27 ohms. I need to do more experimenting with this because I did not add any more resistance once the SG Machine was running at 330 RPM. Its possible that adding another 10 ohms may make the wheel go
faster. I stepped the speed up by using the 12 ohm on the PCA then adding 5 ohms in series with that and watched the RPM
increase till it stopped then added another 5 ohms and so forth. Alligator clips were used to switch gears on the SG Machine.
Each gear was another 5 ohms in my case.

7.) Did you add/use the SPDT switch to be able to change between SSG or Common Ground mode?

I have a diode to do this with but have not done this experiment as of yet. I am still learning things in the regular mode of
operation right now. However my spare is being used up by a Raspberry Pi measurement project I am working on. Using a
SPDT switch is a good way of doing this so you can switch back and forth while doing experimenting.

8.) What was your primary battery Amp draw at 250 RPM; at 330RPM??

I will have to get back to you on the exact amps draws but the COP at 250 is only 0.65 at best. At 330 RPM no measurement
were taken. I am making a special current measurement setup to automaticlly take these measurements without using
meters in series with the battery wires. Everytime I put meters in series with the battery wires I never get the same speed
results due to the meters change the circuit resistance somewhat.

-- James

[jd_zinke@hotmail.com]

GREAT Info!!

Thank you for responding with so much detail. Yes, I have the TeslaGenx board and their 8 & 1 power coil. Both are quality products. I understand almost all of your comments. I have the generator wire measured with 12 strands. .....Just need some grassy area to stretch it out, peg one end and start twisting. No doubt it will seem like a guy-wire cable when it's twisted and ready to be wound around that modified/wider core. And the coil will weigh quite a bit, no doubt.

Just two more questions:

With the spool in front of me, I start winding over the top of the spool's core, under and then back over the top, going from left to right for the first layer, then back from right to left, for the second layer, like winding the power coil??

The generator coil pairing of leads remains a bit fuzzy on which wires are connected in series. I visualize you mean that one outside winding(bottom end) is connected with an inside winding(top end), one strand at a time. Each strand connection soldered and taped, across the side of the coil. Connecting a top strand to a bottom strand, then bottom strand to a top strand, until the end result is two leads, one at the top(inside) and one at the bottom (outside) .. Is that about right??

Regards,
J.D.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi JD --


Thanks, James. I'm surmising that you are using the 8 tranny board and 8/20 gauge power & 1/23 gauge trigger strands, twisted 130 ft. coil.......

Yes, I am using the standard coil and 8 transistor PCA from TeslaGenx.

1.) Are you using the 18 ceramic magnet configuration?

No, My configuration is using the 21 magnets of #8 ceramic type.

2.) Based on your results, I'm going to create a spool that is 3/4" wider than the Advanced manual describes. That should extend the rod pickup area slightly passed the magnet width for a little more flux area and voltage. That may require care in selecting/increasing the gap distance

3.) Instead of 10 windings, I'm going to go for 12 to see if that will also increase the output voltage. I don't want to cause too much inductance or wheel drag.

This would be a nice experiment to add 2 more 100 foot windings. I hope you have two other guys to help in winding this coil.
To make the 10 winding coil with the increased core size I used my coil winding apparatus and two other guys. One person on
the drill. One person slowing moving the apparatus on a cart and another in the middle of the coil strands making sure it was
staying tight. Twelve 16 gauge wires will be an under taking for sure. With the extra 200 foot of wire you should be able to
create a bigger "B" field. This should create a higher AC voltage on the output of the coil.

4.) When you were twisting the strands into one cable, did it seem that the cable got a lot shorter? Is that OK? I'm wondering I need to make each strand 110 ft to compensate for the shortening.....

The 10 coil windings did get a bit shorter but I also did add only an extra 2 foot to each 100 foot strand.

5.) When you finished winding your coil what method did you use to separate each strand-pair to determine the coil windings were all identified as going in the same directions? Why I'm a little confused, is in the Advanced book it says that the wound coil strans are the same as a single 1,000 ft piece of wire. Based on Arron's reply, if the strans remain as loops in a series, some coils will be reversed electrically, impacting the performance. A picture in the book seems to show some splicing was required. How did you determine how to connect the ends so as to get all the coils the same polarity??

I was also confused with the wiring up of the 10 strands of wire to make the 1000 foot coil. First attempt at this I did wire the coil up wrong. If you wire the coil wrong you will know when you get to the last two wires due to the coil wires cannot be on the same side. The book really should have a picture of this as to how they wired the coil. They used a connector so it hides the wiring criss cross back and forth. Make sure that wire one is from the middle or start of the coil and the 10th or 12th wire in your case is from the outside end of the coil when the wiring is done.

6.) What was the total resistance of the trigger resistors that you settled on, during tuning, to reduce the trigger voltage and gain RPM?? Did you add/use the momentary press-and-hold button to get the wheel RPM up to max speed??

The total resistance that I had was 27 ohms. I need to do more experimenting with this because I did not add any more resistance once the SG Machine was running at 330 RPM. Its possible that adding another 10 ohms may make the wheel go
faster. I stepped the speed up by using the 12 ohm on the PCA then adding 5 ohms in series with that and watched the RPM
increase till it stopped then added another 5 ohms and so forth. Alligator clips were used to switch gears on the SG Machine.
Each gear was another 5 ohms in my case.

7.) Did you add/use the SPDT switch to be able to change between SSG or Common Ground mode?

I have a diode to do this with but have not done this experiment as of yet. I am still learning things in the regular mode of
operation right now. However my spare is being used up by a Raspberry Pi measurement project I am working on. Using a
SPDT switch is a good way of doing this so you can switch back and forth while doing experimenting.

8.) What was your primary battery Amp draw at 250 RPM; at 330RPM??

I will have to get back to you on the exact amps draws but the COP at 250 is only 0.65 at best. At 330 RPM no measurement
were taken. I am making a special current measurement setup to automaticlly take these measurements without using
meters in series with the battery wires. Everytime I put meters in series with the battery wires I never get the same speed
results due to the meters change the circuit resistance somewhat.

-- James

[James McDonald]

Thank you for responding with so much detail. Yes, I have the TeslaGenx board and their 8 & 1 power coil. Both are quality products. I understand almost all of your comments. I have the generator wire measured with 12 strands. .....Just need some grassy area to stretch it out, peg one end and start twisting. No doubt it will seem like a guy-wire cable when it's twisted and ready to be wound around that modified/wider core. And the coil will weigh quite a bit, no doubt.

Just two more questions:

With the spool in front of me, I start winding over the top of the spool's core, under and then back over the top, going from left to right for the first layer, then back from right to left, for the second layer, like winding the power coil??

The generator coil pairing of leads remains a bit fuzzy on which wires are connected in series. I visualize you mean that one outside winding(bottom end) is connected with an inside winding(top end), one strand at a time. Each strand connection soldered and taped, across the side of the coil. Connecting a top strand to a bottom strand, then bottom strand to a top strand, until the end result is two leads, one at the top(inside) and one at the bottom (outside) .. Is that about right??

Regards,
J.D.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi JD --

Answer to Question 1.

Yes, just wind the wires back and forth on top of the lower winding to make the coil. You may have to use tape
once the windings are getting to the point where they are not staying tight on the coil form. This is what I did on my
generator coil. Towards the end of the winding you will be holding 10 pounds of litz coil wire. One you get half way you
may have to rest your hands as this is tough on the wrists. I shared the winding of the coil with one other guy.

Answer to Question 2.

I will try my best to explain the generator coil wiring. Since the SG Advanced Book does not include a wiring diagram
I will try to show you a crude drawing below. Picture this in your mind. The 12 inside coil windings are facing the 12
outside coil windings. Strip or burn off enough of the vanish coating on all 24 wires. Now using an ohm meter on the 200
ohm setting measure each coil winding and label each side of the coil with labels numbered 1 through 12. Now using the
crude drawing below solder the wires together as shown. (If you have connectors and connector pins you could do this
exactly as the Advanced Book shows in the picture. ) I did not have connectors or pins so I just soldered the wires together
to make the 1000 foot coil. ( I hope this drawing below stays in tack.)



Inside Coil Wires Outside Coil Wires
or Start of Coil or End of Coil
Windings. Windings.


Wire 1 <--- x<----------------<---------- Wire 1
|
Wire 2 ----------<x x<---------------<--------- Wire 2
|
Wire 3 ----------<-<- x<--------------<--------- Wire 3
|
Wire 4 ----------<--<- x<-------------<--------- Wire 4
|
Wire 5 ----------<---<- x<------------<--------- Wire 5
|
Wire 6 ----------<----<- x<-----------<-------- Wire 6
|
Wire 7 ----------<-----<- x<----------<-------- Wire 7
|
Wire 8 ----------<------<- x<--------<--------- Wire 8
|
Wire 9 ----------<-------<- x<-------<--------- Wire 9
|
Wire 10 ----------<--------<- x<------<--------- Wire 10
|
Wire 11 ----------<----------<- x<-----<--------- Wire 11
|
Wire 12 ----------<-----------<- ---> Wire 12


-- James

[James McDonald]

Hi JD --

Looks like my drawing did not stay in tack. The downward character should be were the small "x" is and the other
end of that character should connect to the less then symbol "<". Otherwise if you need a better drawing we may have
to exchange email addresses and I can make a PDF drawing to email to you.

Hope this helps.

[jd_zinke@hotmail.com]

Update

James,

I applied your recommendations and got the generator coils connected in series, ending with one wire at the top and one at the bottom. Thanks for the advice. It reduce the confusion of connecting multiple windings in series.

You're right about hefting it during the winding; I took several days to wind the stiff 12 strand twisted cable. It was like bending solid metal. That time included getting the strands connected. Whew!!

Even with the two extra windings and the wider 2.25" rod core, I can get only about 7v AC. Adding a single rectifier and a 4700uf/50v cap got it up to about 9v DC. Gap distance between the coil and wheel, to get the highest output, was about 0.25". Tweaked 26" wheel speed is about 230 RPM with 18 ceramic magnets. I am disappointed on the generator coil output. Almost any coil load other than the volt meter, slows the wheel to below 200 RPM, affecting the on-going charge rate.

I'm interested in reconnecting the windings into the Tesla Bifilar configuration. By tying 2 of the 12 windings in the in bifilar configuration, I might get better results. If I do get higher voltage on one coil, I might expand that idea and create another similar bifilar configuration, then tie those two bifilar coils in series. If favorable increase in voltage is present after two coils, I'll connect the remainder of the windings in a like manner.

Have you/anyone reading this, ever made a iron-core bifilar coil instead of a typical pancake bifilar coil??

Have you ever tried a typical magneto coil from a small gas engine on your wheel??

Regards,
J.D.

Hi JD --

Looks like my drawing did not stay in tack. The downward character should be were the small "x" is and the other
end of that character should connect to the less then symbol "<". Otherwise if you need a better drawing we may have
to exchange email addresses and I can make a PDF drawing to email to you.

Hope this helps.

[James McDonald]

James,

I applied your recommendations and got the generator coils connected in series, ending with one wire at the top and one at the bottom. Thanks for the advice. It reduce the confusion of connecting multiple windings in series.

You're right about hefting it during the winding; I took several days to wind the stiff 12 strand twisted cable. It was like bending solid metal. That time included getting the strands connected. Whew!!

Even with the two extra windings and the wider 2.25" rod core, I can get only about 7v AC. Adding a single rectifier and a 4700uf/50v cap got it up to about 9v DC. Gap distance between the coil and wheel, to get the highest output, was about 0.25". Tweaked 26" wheel speed is about 230 RPM with 18 ceramic magnets. I am disappointed on the generator coil output. Almost any coil load other than the volt meter, slows the wheel to below 200 RPM, affecting the on-going charge rate.

I'm interested in reconnecting the windings into the Tesla Bifilar configuration. By tying 2 of the 12 windings in the in bifilar configuration, I might get better results. If I do get higher voltage on one coil, I might expand that idea and create another similar bifilar configuration, then tie those two bifilar coils in series. If favorable increase in voltage is present after two coils, I'll connect the remainder of the windings in a like manner.

Have you/anyone reading this, ever made a iron-core bifilar coil instead of a typical pancake bifilar coil??

Have you ever tried a typical magneto coil from a small gas engine on your wheel??

Regards,
J.D.

Hi JD --

Wow what a feat to make a coil like that by yourself. I would of thought you would have achieved a higher AC voltage
output also with more windings. But the speed of the SG Machine is important in getting a higher generator output voltage. My
generator coil only makes a 5 RPM drag on the wheel spin speed. I have got my generator coil to make an 18 volt AC output
but the SG machine was running at 335 RPM with a 21 magnet wheel. However I did an experiment with a spool of 18 gauge
wire with no core and it was not even at a parallel gap and the gap was irregular. I got enough AC voltage output to flash the
LEDs I had hooked up to the output wires. This spool of wire had access to both ends so I just removed the vanish from both
ends. The coil of wire was one strand at 1100 foot of wire. I am thinking that if I would of put a core into that spool I would
get the same voltage output at the 10 strands of litz wire. It would have saved me a lot of labor of winding a special 10 wire
litz generator coil.

Have you/anyone reading this, ever made a iron-core bifilar coil instead of a typical pancake bifilar coil?? No. But I did make a
Tri-filar coil before and it also produced enough voltage to light up an LED with no core.

Have you ever tried a typical magneto coil from a small gas engine on your wheel?? No. That type of coil is very different and a
lawn mower engine run at a high RPM. If you have a magneto coil available for doing this experiment please try it out I
would be interested in the results you get.

-- James

[Notsure]

I tried an experiment and don't understand the results. I put a coil inside a cylinder I printed, the coil is stationary. The cylinder is only about an inch and three quarters, inside diameter. It has 4 quarter inch vertical holes ninety degrees apart with diametrically magnetized cylinder magnets, all north facing in. They are only an inch and a half long, about the same size as the diameter of the coil. It's all mounted on a modified vcr head. Anyway, it works great, I don't get it. I used a reed switch I held in my hand to find the sweet spot, nothing unusual with the timing.

[Notsure]

Sorry guys, figured it out. I had the monopole coil in there, my bad. I've been experimenting with conical coils and if you wind two coils going in the same direction from the center out and joined together it forms a monopole by + and - on the ends. If you counter rotate them from the middle out it can only be a monopole by joining the ends and the middle wires together. I wind a lot of coils and long story short, grabbed the wrong one. Getting old, lol.

[Notsure]

I think if I change the rotor to 6 magnets and alternate the poles towards the coil it should give me the push pull effect like the zero force motor has.