John Bedini and Twisted Wire

[ZPDM]

I have much less education and experience than others relevant to this question however I will throw in my two cents.

By way of background, quoting from Tesla's patent on a MEANS FOR INCREASING THE INTENSITY OF ELECTRICAL OSCILLATIONS
"in other words, to produce the greatest rise of current or electrical pressure in the same—it is desirable to make its inductance as large and its resistance as small as practicable. ... On the other hand, an increase of the section of the conductor with the object of reducing its resistance is, beyond a certain limit, of little or no value, principally because electrical oscillations, particularly those of high frequency, pass mainly through the superficial conducting layers, and while it is true that this drawback may be overcome in a measure by the employment of thin ribbons, tubes, or stranded cables, yet in practice other disadvantages arise, which often more than offset the gain."

Further, when you pulse an inductor with DC, what shows up, at least on my multimeter is AC current, of course that is prior to being rectified by any Bedini type diode arrangement. If we look at the Wikipedia write up on Litz wire it states that at 60 Khz AC the skin depth of a copper wire is 0.01 inches. So no matter what you started with you have functionally 30 gauge wire at 60 KHz. So I thought the reason Litz wire is used is simply a matter of overcoming skin effect at higher frequencies, to keep resistance low and inductance high as Tesla recommended.

[Forrest]

Hi Randy,
Think about a cable......the kind they use to lift very heavy objects.......how do they do that without chafing one another strands winding and unwinding.........they use a twisted configuration. This twisted arrangement allows the several strands to lay evenly on the spool and wind allowing all of the strands to wind at the same exact length without chafing or gaining length. I know for some this is a difficult concept but I do see it thsi way.

Bud

[Tom C]

hey tom. Whether we are running the coil at 120khz or 10hz the duration of the spike is going to be the same. That's more dependent on the batteries. Off the top of my head (I would have to check my scope) the duration of the spike before the current kicks in is around 1us... if this was AC that would put the skin depth of copper down to around 0.066mm so with John's preference of #20 wire there would still be significant skin effect... But I don't think the skin effect works quite the same with pulse DC as it does with AC since with AC one peak is having to fight against the preceeding trough, which obviously isn't a problem with DC. I would imagine the skin effect for pulse DC isn't as bad, but it will still be present.

Then again, the skin effect might not even be applicable to the type of energy we are dealing with...

seph,

if we look at JB's reference to leedskalnins work, he always talks about how the druid gas rides on the outside of the wire, spinning around the wire itself. i think there is something on the atomic level going on with the wire when it is litzed. I am sure there is an explaination for it. it is more than just skin effect I believe it is what is happening outside the wire.

Tom C

[Darren Parrish]

I read in a collection of threads that like Tom said, Mutual Induction; or as it said where I read it, Keeping the Capacitance & Induction the same so the multi-coils will fire together and with the same nice pretty single precise wave.

Darren

[Faraday88]

If one studies the Tesla Pancake coil, that geometry tells you more stories on the need to twist them when they are wound simultaneously..(two Insulated wires)
The Flat- Pancake geometry is very similar to the Atomic structure of matter and its interaction with the aether.....so well did Tesla understand this...unfortunately this is not what we have in our text books teaching us God when will things change?...
rgds,
Faraday88.

[ZPDM]

I want to have another go at this. This is not my field so I if I get way off on something basic perhaps someone with experience will correct me rather than my leave my butt out in the wind. So in considering the use of Litz wire in a monopole machine I see two parameters. First is the electromagnet strength, which will determine the torque and rpms of the machine and second is the inductive/radiant spike, which is the primary energy output of the machine. Looking at the first point, errr first, electromagnet strength is a function of core material (permeability, saturation point) and amp turns. Maybe more, but I think those are, conventionally speaking, the main things. Leaving aside core material, looking at amp turns, one can put an increasing number of winds(turns) on a core and get increasing magnet strength. However as this process continues two factors come into play. One is that the increasing turns remove the wire further and further from the core (ooh ... this honestly just occurred to me, how well does magnetic strength "conduct" down a core? i.e. if you have a one foot long 1/4 inch diameter core with 500 winds right up against the core what is its strength compared with a one inch long 1/4 core with 12 layers?). Along with the wire getting progressively further from the core, the increasing length of wire also adds more and more resistance. At first this is negligible, however at some point there is a maximum to magnetic strength and the increased winds lead to a decrease in amps per turn such that magnetic strength declines. It could be noted that the decrease in magnetic strength may not parallel the decrease in amps. That is to say, it is my understanding that (because of the increasing turns - though at reduced amperage) even with a weaker electromagnet one's efficiency in terms of magnet strength/amps input may still increase for a time with increasing turns. Considering Litz wire in this situation (ignoring inter turn effects because I have no ideaer though would be happy to learn), if one replaces a 1000 turns of say 23 gauge wire with 10 sets of one hundred turns of (what ever when combined together would equal 23 gauge) I'll guess 30 gauge wire what do we get? Well, alright I should really do all the math in terms of resistance per length, wire diameter and how many turns can fit with circular geometry ... nah. Consider a wire with a one inch diameter. Now slice it like a pie through the center into ten slices. This wire is very long and now is wound into an electromagnet. I have to think if you run a current through the whole wire or all the wire in separate pieces (litz wire) you are going to get the same result. I conclude that litz wire (again I know nothing of inter wire effects, as Sgt Schultz said I see nothing ... nothing!) has no effect on magnet strength unless one is dealing with a skin effect. Skin effect is spoken about in terms of high frequency AC current but I would guess?? it occurs also with high frequency pulsed DC. In this case, considering skin effect, if your one inch diameter wire lost ten percent of its diameter from skin effect this means the ten segmented wires of one tenth the size will no longer conduct at all. Wait ... that doesn't work, what if they each lost ten percent? that doesn't work either. While I have no idea how or why, Litz wire is protective against skin effect. Given this, one can have an electromagnet strength when pulsed that is close to equivalent to what one gets when simply running a DC current into the electromagnet, ain't life grand?

Moving on, what about the radiant spike? The radiant spike, in my view will be a function of the magnetic flux across the conductive coil occurring from the collapse of the electromagnet. So for some reason that I can't explain I acknowledge that Litz wire is "protective" against skin effect changes with rapidly pulsed DC. However something queer, yes queer, also comes into play when considering the radiant/inductive spike. It doesn't give a darn about wire diameter. I've heard JB has demonstrated this, I've read the Russians, yes ... okay no, a Russian researcher transmitted kilowatts of power through a single hair thin wire. When radiant, the power doesn't care much about wire diameter.

So, and pardon me that I am thinking this through a bit as I write, let's go back to Litz wire and the inductive spike. The pulse is stronger because the Litz wire is "protective" against skin effect. However, the inductive pulse doesn't care about the decreased wire diameter. So ... if you used eight wires litzed you wouldn't have to worry about pulse hertz and would get the maximum inductive spike from the Litz wires.

Could be way off on all this, as I said why the heck does Litz wire mitigate skin effect, I would think it would compound it. In any event I had a naughty thought when starting this post. Should probably just leave it there ... but I'll continue. There's maybe nothing to this, as I said it just occurred to me. A Russian researcher has demonstrated the transmission of let's say 1 kilowatt of power, as one wire transmission, through a hair thin wire. Da, da, it has to be pulsed DC power, yet nonetheless, what happens if you wind that hair thin low resistance wire into a coil?

[Faraday88]

All you guys should start thinking on the Longitudal aspect of Electricity if you are to understand the twisting of the wires..
I call it Capacito-Inductive Coupling which is Longitudial Electrostatic Mutual Induction if you so term it..!
and yes it also couples the Magnetic Component of the Longitudial Electromagnetic Ineteraction between two or more wires.

Rgds,
Faraday88.

[Cadman]

Litzing thought

Hi everyone,

Just starting with all of this so please forgive my ignorance. My thinking on the litzing would be to use a single strand center surrounded by 6 strands of the same gauge wire. Thus all 6 wound wires would contact the center wire and each other, leaving no gap between any of them, and the magnetic field of the center wire would evenly circulate through the outer wires.

Would this be a good coil winding method to use?

Regards

[aln]

Cadman, try it. It's enough of a pain to litz wires, trying to keep one central would be more of a pain. and the fact that your central wire would probably be the smallest as that would probably be the trigger wire and the others the power strands. Al

[Cadman]

I do intend to test it on a small scale. If it works well enough, well, then a winding machine would need some inventing. Mostly I was curious whether anyone else had similar thoughts or had actually investigated this.

BTW all 7 wires would be the same gauge. It's based on the property of circles where one circle of any diameter will be completely enclosed by six more circles of the same diameter, and all outer circles will touch each adjacent circle plus the center one. Two parts of 3-6-9, now if I could just figure out what the 9 part is …

[MrRonsen]

before you fiddle with making such coils.. wouldnt it be best to buy original components.. coils.. from teslagenx.... i will do so.. everything original... when everything works as expected.. i could try to build my own coils.. inspect the orig coils to make same style coils.., i would think to twist all wires in same style.. not one centered wire, do all wires bobins on a horizontal wheel.. turn the wheel, and at the center all wires will twist each other without one centered wire, all wires same length.... but at first we have to replicate 1:1 the big one coil 8 wires ssg with cap dump.. my own opinion, at first view it looks expensive, but later when you look back.. you could recognize that it was cheaper to buy the orig materials

[ErikN]

Hi everyone,

Just starting with all of this so please forgive my ignorance. My thinking on the litzing would be to use a single strand center surrounded by 6 strands of the same gauge wire. Thus all 6 wound wires would contact the center wire and each other, leaving no gap between any of them, and the magnetic field of the center wire would evenly circulate through the outer wires.

Would this be a good coil winding method to use?

Regards

Cadman,

I would not recommend this method. You want the impedance of each wire to be the same; this means you want the length of each wire to be identical and the twists consistent over the length of the twisted wire.

Erik

[Cadman]

Thanks everyone for the feedback,

I will definately build my first machines "by the book". Just thinking of the future here.

Erik, interesting comment. So, the trigger wire must also match match the main coil wires in impedance? Did not realize that.

Regards

[Faraday88]

Hi All,
Why is no one speaking of the Famous Tesla's Patent 'Coils for Electromagnets' That geometry is Universal configuration for the Radiant Interaction.!
the Flat Spiral pancake, High-Inductance with uniform capacitance all along the Coil length but with reduced Impedance.. that's what Tesla taught us..
you will find JB including this in the 'Circuit and related methods for Charging a Battery.''
rgds,
Faraday88.

[ErikN]

Thanks everyone for the feedback,

I will definately build my first machines "by the book". Just thinking of the future here.

Erik, interesting comment. So, the trigger wire must also match match the main coil wires in impedance? Did not realize that.

Regards

Hi Cadman,

I should have been more specific. I was referring to the power windings, not the trigger winding. The current recommendation for a coil is to use 20awg wire for the power windings and a 23awg trigger wire.

Erik