The Ultimate Cap Dump

[Catrinisin]

I forgot about this video:

John and Chuck go over some stuff and run into the SCR lock. We can learn from the conversation they are having, as to why it does lock. I just like watching these over again. I always gleam something I missed before...

-KR
Patrick

It looks like they have a resistor between the cathode and the gate on that SCR. I haven't seen that in any of the schematics floating around. Anyone know what that is?

Thanks,
Chris

[min2oly]

It looks like they have a resistor between the cathode and the gate on that SCR. I haven't seen that in any of the schematics floating around. Anyone know what that is?

Thanks,
Chris

Good eye Chris!
I did not even notice. However, isn't that the resistor that Oliver and Slider are talking about?

either way - it still locked up on JB and Chuck, and seemed very dependent on the load/charge battery.

Patrick

[Catrinisin]

Good eye Chris!
I did not even notice. However, isn't that the resistor that Oliver and Slider are talking about?

either way - it still locked up on JB and Chuck, and seemed very dependent on the load/charge battery.

Patrick

Yes so maybe the resistor isn't that important.

I noticed with my SCR zener combo that if the charge battery has too much impedance, say it is bad and been sitting too long, then the voltage just builds and builds in the capacitors and the SCR never seems to fire. I end up turning off the machine to avoid blown caps. This is confusing to me, why wouldn't the SCR fire when the voltage gets to the proper amount? Maybe it is firing just fine, but the high impedance isn't' letting anything through? Grasping...

[Catrinisin]

Interesting cap pulser I ran accross

Check this one out, guy using a string of LED's across the pos and neg of the cap to trigger a transistor then relay. Not the most efficient probably but interesting:

His circuit:

[totoalas]

In the jt of dodoshlodo yt channel
Hes charging 7 ah batteries and no worries of overcharging......
In my solar set up 2 10 w in series 36 v dc in using 2 jt,s with one trigger are constantly charging 2 (4 yrs old ) 7 ah sla batteries upt to 13.6 v / 10.00 on one alum coverted battery
Combining both jt,s output to a parallel batteries produced heat problems in the transistors 2n3055.....
I think must separate again the output as I ve done before since it is stone cold and constant charging with a jr load of 8 5 watts 220v ac load 24/7 for six months
if I use this jt plus the cap dump/relay to work when the sun is down will be great .... so the set up will be solar booster - cap dump - and - charge controller on a 12 v battery bank.....
i am frustrated with my 555 as im doin it in a breadboard and still cannot work .....
totoalas

[blackchisel97]

Totoalas, take a look at my Magnetic Pulser in Dr Beck thread. I'm using 555 and two Mosfets to dump 20,000uF/70V into inductive load. It wouldn't take much modification to make a cap pulser. Mosftets are cold even at higher frequency which isn't needed here. Good Mosfet with low internal resistance is a key, as well as gate driver.
Better way would be to use comparator and dump at the right cap potential instead of "blind timing".
Personally, I don't like 741 which is noisy and requires positive/negative supply. There are better op-amps available.
I was trying to use SCR's before but they're too fussy about delta V/delta T which will cause them to latch in the most inappropriate moment (Murphy's Law).

Just an idea
Vtech

[totoalas]

Thanks vtech i will look into it
Have you tried photo mos rs hk stock is in the us and will take 10 days to deliver will test first with a relay and see first your circuit ill nuy the parts today except for the photo mos

[min2oly]

Here is an interim follow up:

Can we get a simple switch to go overunity and therefore cost zero for the switch?

[min2oly]

On the Ferris Wheel thread at EF Ron Chase puts up a PDF showing how he has his working w/ a stand alone FET here. He also says he was able to get his SSR to switch in Breakdown Mode.

Eventually Brent is able to get his to switch as well. So maybe it’s just me???

Why then has JB decided against using this method in the new bike wheel kit?

Instead, it looks like he is ramping up efforts to sell a special Comparator to switch the cap dump.

Does anyone have, or can anyone guess the answers?
Has anyone else been able to get a FET or SSR to dump the whole cap across a charge battery, switch off, then charge up again to a consistent voltage level?
Kind Regards,
Patrick

[blackchisel97]

Hi Patrick,
I used SS relays and SCR but I was dumping only 20A at the most. I found that good Fet's can handle much more without wasting energy in heat-sinks and latching issues. Therefore, they would be my choice for such purpose.
As for the sensing part, micro controller will do the job but learning programming takes some time and not every one likes to fiddle with that. Op amp comparator with set point of reference on one of the inputs will control discharge once potential across the cap reaches 22V (my choice for 12V battery). I'll need to read the thread again and check those videos to find what is the goal and I maybe able to help designing something.

Vtech

[John_Koorn]

On the Ferris Wheel thread at EF Ron Chase puts up a PDF showing how he has his working w/ a stand alone FET here. He also says he was able to get his SSR to switch in Breakdown Mode.

Eventually Brent is able to get his to switch as well. So maybe it’s just me???

Why then has JB decided against using this method in the new bike wheel kit?

Instead, it looks like he is ramping up efforts to sell a special Comparator to switch the cap dump.

Does anyone have, or can anyone guess the answers?
Has anyone else been able to get a FET or SSR to dump the whole cap across a charge battery, switch off, then charge up again to a consistent voltage level?
Kind Regards,
Patrick

Hi Patrick,

I can take a guess at why the comparator is the "ultimate" cap dump. It's for all the reasons that are described in the Bedini SG - The Complete Intermediate Handbook.

From my experiments, the comparator has beaten all the other methods I have tried over the years in terms of both rejuvenating older sulfated batteries as well as good batteries.

I can only guess that the reason why JB went with the SSR in the Ferris wheel was because he had either not finished developing the comparator yet or that he ran out of time to get the machine ready in time for the conference.

John K.

[Ron Chase]

Hi Patrick,

I've been following this thread you started. Very cool!

From what, I've observed so far the SSR relay cap dump that JB used on his Ferris wheel functions differently than the comparator circuit. The former dumps the negative side potential of the cap with each pulse created by the switching of the Bedini/Cole circuit. There is so much energy created by large 36V Ferris wheel systems running at 18 RPM that the cap gets to 48V or higher with each pulse and the potential difference between the cap negative and the battery negative causes the SSR to turn on and dump the cap to the battery bank. (Note: the highest energy pulses are realized when a regauging motor is installed on the Ferris wheel axle and is running in generator mode).

The SSG's running at higher RPM's and using a different triggering method charge the cap in a series of small steps rather than all at once so the comparator circuit works well with the SSG's. It can also work with the 36V Ferris wheels but I found it very tricky to control because of the big spikes with each pulse.

I've tried using SSR's and Fet's with my upgraded SSG I built a few years back and they work and do charge up batteries. However they are always turned on because of the rapid and constant flow of energy pulses going to the cap. Pretty much like hooking up the SSG output to a diode or bridge and connecting directly to the charge battery. That's why there is no observable cap build up and dump as you see in the comparator circuit. It seems to me the internal self switching function of Fet's and SSR's are a perfect solution for very high potential slow pulse switching. I don't think you can use these components to dump a cap, turn off and then dump again when the cap is charged unless you use an external timing circuit to trigger their inputs conventionally.

I think, I remember you were going to build a Ferris wheel system. Did you get it completed and running on 36V?

Best Regards,

Ron

On the Ferris Wheel thread at EF Ron Chase puts up a PDF showing how he has his working w/ a stand alone FET here. He also says he was able to get his SSR to switch in Breakdown Mode.

Eventually Brent is able to get his to switch as well. So maybe it’s just me???

Why then has JB decided against using this method in the new bike wheel kit?

Instead, it looks like he is ramping up efforts to sell a special Comparator to switch the cap dump.

Does anyone have, or can anyone guess the answers?
Has anyone else been able to get a FET or SSR to dump the whole cap across a charge battery, switch off, then charge up again to a consistent voltage level?
Kind Regards,
Patrick

[min2oly]

Hi Patrick,

I can take a guess at why the comparator is the "ultimate" cap dump. It's for all the reasons that are described in the Bedini SG - The Complete Intermediate Handbook.

From my experiments, the comparator has beaten all the other methods I have tried over the years in terms of both rejuvenating older sulfated batteries as well as good batteries.

I can only guess that the reason why JB went with the SSR in the Ferris wheel was because he had either not finished developing the comparator yet or that he ran out of time to get the machine ready in time for the conference.

John K.

Thanks John,

That clears up a few things, JB is very ingenious when it comes solving problems.

Ahhhh yes, the C.I.H. :-)

Just for clarification on JB's Comparator... the main things that it is doing are:

1. making sure the capacitor you have dumps @ X voltage above the charge battery, and we are able to set X and/or it comes w/ set X value?

2. makes sure to dump the whole cap, that is, it places the cap in parallel w/ the charge battery?

3. and, it shuts off until the cap fills up again?

am I leaving anything out?

Thank you for helping out on this.
Sincerely,
Patrick A.

[min2oly]

Hi Patrick,

I've been following this thread you started. Very cool!

From what, I've observed so far the SSR relay cap dump that JB used on his Ferris wheel functions differently than the comparator circuit. The former dumps the negative side potential of the cap with each pulse created by the switching of the Bedini/Cole circuit. There is so much energy created by large 36V Ferris wheel systems running at 18 RPM that the cap gets to 48V or higher with each pulse and the potential difference between the cap negative and the battery negative causes the SSR to turn on and dump the cap to the battery bank. (Note: the highest energy pulses are realized when a regauging motor is installed on the Ferris wheel axle and is running in generator mode).

The SSG's running at higher RPM's and using a different triggering method charge the cap in a series of small steps rather than all at once so the comparator circuit works well with the SSG's. It can also work with the 36V Ferris wheels but I found it very tricky to control because of the big spikes with each pulse.

I've tried using SSR's and Fet's with my upgraded SSG I built a few years back and they work and do charge up batteries. However they are always turned on because of the rapid and constant flow of energy pulses going to the cap. Pretty much like hooking up the SSG output to a diode or bridge and connecting directly to the charge battery. That's why there is no observable cap build up and dump as you see in the comparator circuit. It seems to me the internal self switching function of Fet's and SSR's are a perfect solution for very high potential slow pulse switching. I don't think you can use these components to dump a cap, turn off and then dump again when the cap is charged unless you use an external timing circuit to trigger their inputs conventionally.

I think, I remember you were going to build a Ferris wheel system. Did you get it completed and running on 36V?

Best Regards,

Ron


[ATTACH=CONFIG]1737[/ATTACH][ATTACH=CONFIG]1738[/ATTACH]

Hi Ron,

The attachments did not work for me...

The Ferris Wheel working as you describe which enables the SSR to switch like that makes alot of sense. It was the only explanation left for me. You know, one other thing I never tried was to place an analog amp meter in there... as I do not have any. I wonder...

I finished the 7' wheel made entirely from wood. It sits in our living room. I have run it w/ smaller coils using the SSG as well as the Bedini Cole switch - I can tell though, it really wants the big coils. I took delivery on 30 pounds of 18awg a while back, however, I ended up down a rabbit hole w/ all of it
Now I have to decide what I'm going to do next...

I've been doing so many other things, I wanted to get back to this starting w/ the cap dump. So here I am. I think my Comparator does everything I describe in this thread. I do have some FET's on order, to see if they work the same or better than the SSR I've been using. The SSR works just fine with almost all of my builds, even the small ones. It reaches X then dumps then shuts off then fills back up to X - I can set X. It's all in the BIG "clue" I gave in part 3. I only wish it was a little more precise and simple. It's a bit springy, however, very reliable and dare-I-say OU in-and-of-itself.

Thanks again for your thoughts - please continue when you can.
sincerely,
Patrick A.

[min2oly]

Hi Patrick,
I used SS relays and SCR but I was dumping only 20A at the most. I found that good Fet's can handle much more without wasting energy in heat-sinks and latching issues. Therefore, they would be my choice for such purpose.
As for the sensing part, micro controller will do the job but learning programming takes some time and not every one likes to fiddle with that. Op amp comparator with set point of reference on one of the inputs will control discharge once potential across the cap reaches 22V (my choice for 12V battery). I'll need to read the thread again and check those videos to find what is the goal and I maybe able to help designing something.

Vtech

Hi Vtech,

Your 8(6?) filer SS SSG was the inspiration for my switch to solid state - big thanks! Your video made it simple for me

I'll take any help I can get on this, wait a couple of days until I publish the final vid. I'm sure someone will be able to simplify my mess w/in a few minutes of watching it.
Sincerely,
Patrick A.