My Mode 3 - In action

[min2oly]

Alright so I am back with another part 2 video. In this one I walk the machine through a few short charge/discharge cycles. In each charge I took one of the caps out of the dumpers circuit so we are looking at increasing the voltage and lowering the capacitance with each step as a result.

Here are the charts:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5982[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5983[/ATTACH]

The video is another sort of long one but it shows a little bit of each cycle as it's happening and has my ramblings. ---Bob

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AmzmftzD-V0miF8q406cus6LiO2w

Nice! Thanks for sharing that. You have a nice testbed there. What have your results been when adding more batteries to the backend while using the 400V spike method?

I've dumped at those voltages (40+) and have never seen that spike. I'm hoping this is not an anomaly of the CAP. I can't remember, have you used others with the same results?
KR - Patrick

[Bradley Malone]

Bob, good work.

I have on important question for you. Does your meter beep every twenty minutes?

I am working with something like this also using a solid state oscillator and an arduino cap dump that is using relays. I have a thread over in the radiant oscillator section about it. haven't got much done yet except for a few baseline charges and discharges with normal "hot" chargers. The oscillator is also made so I can swap coils and components. The problem is when the meter is hooked up it beeps every twenty minutes and its driving me insane! I do not have a shop to work in so everything is in my dining room and I can not figure out a way to turn off the beeping and I am a few bleeps away from unsoldering the speaker

[Bradley Malone]

After posting my last post in this thread I realized how old it was ...and after watching your video I was struck with another question. The "pre-spike" or whatever you want to call it. have you ever tried dumping that cap through a transformer or coil to see what effect the spike has. I am just thinking of any ways it may be used other than into a battery.

[BobZilla]

Hey guys, on lunch again so just have time for a quick post.

Patrick yes I have seen it on other caps. Bradley I'm not sure what you were getting at with the beeping meter but no mine do not beep. I have added an external battery box to mine so that they can run for days without needing to change out the battery. I used to just use the 9v and that was a pain.

Let me just say generally that this 400v thing is not any holy grail. I actually do not use that method anymore because I have found better ways BUT the reason I brought it up and this thread is getting some posting about it is because it demonstrates a property that was being discussed on another thread. Patrick and I jumped over to this thread and sort of kept talking about it but I am not trying to sell this as the best thing since sliced bread. It is interesting and i seriously doubt anyone understood it three years ago when I first talked about it. As with many experiments this shows something in a unique way, it does not mean it's the best way or the only way, just that it is producible.

The cap dancing is far more interesting than this anyway but it's all good to re-examine things and hopefully get people thinking.

Thanks for the support guys---Bob


*Edit*
Patrick just a quick thought about why you may not have seen it when you went on 40v.. Have you tried putting the diode between your cap and battery? The one I point out to prevent the battery from pushing back on the cap. We know that current absorbs the spikes so it could be that that pressure point between the cap and the battery is sucking down the spike, current in both directions, not much but the diode prevents any push.

[min2oly]

Hey guys, on lunch again so just have time for a quick post.

Patrick yes I have seen it on other caps. Bradley I'm not sure what you were getting at with the beeping meter but no mine do not beep. I have added an external battery box to mine so that they can run for days without needing to change out the battery. I used to just use the 9v and that was a pain.

Let me just say generally that this 400v thing is not any holy grail. I actually do not use that method anymore because I have found better ways BUT the reason I brought it up and this thread is getting some posting about it is because it demonstrates a property that was being discussed on another thread. Patrick and I jumped over to this thread and sort of kept talking about it but I am not trying to sell this as the best thing since sliced bread. It is interesting and i seriously doubt anyone understood it three years ago when I first talked about it. As with many experiments this shows something in a unique way, it does not mean it's the best way or the only way, just that it is producible.

The cap dancing is far more interesting than this anyway but it's all good to re-examine things and hopefully get people thinking.

Thanks for the support guys---Bob


*Edit*
Patrick just a quick thought about why you may not have seen it when you went on 40v.. Have you tried putting the diode between your cap and battery? The one I point out to prevent the battery from pushing back on the cap. We know that current absorbs the spikes so it could be that that pressure point between the cap and the battery is sucking down the spike, current in both directions, not much but the diode prevents any push.

The diode! meesa gonna try that... I can't believe I missed it.

I understand what you're saying about not being the answer etc. sure is a lot of fun though and I have combinations of "non-answers" that when put together are the answer so...
Might add that diode to my ultimate cap dump this weekend see if it does anything.

Thanks - Patrick

[BobZilla]

I would be really curious to see if that makes a difference in your test Patrick, please post back whenever you try it.

Guys I have to let you know something that happened, wouldn't want you to have it happen too. I was pushing the dumper pretty hard playing with the +40 thing and I was actually somewhere around 50v at a high rate and it DID blow my SSR. Iy did not happen right away, took a few hours actually so I didn't think anything was going to go wrong with what I was doing but anyway just use caution if you try it. Those crydom D1's are expensive. So for the heck of it I tried replacing the blown SSR with six of those cheap 4A that I linked a few posts back. I just bussed them all together in parallel and tried it out. They seem to work pretty good so far, why would I care to try this? Because six of those things only cost me about 15 bucks. I tried all the settings we just ran through and they took it so on a budget they might be a good alternative to the fancier crydoms.

Anyway you do what ever you do at your own risk anyway, just letting you know what happened to mine.

[Bradley Malone]

Bob,

the meter thing I think I figured out. This new version from radioshack uses two AA batteries and I put rechargables in it that have a lower resting voltage then the meter wants...so every twenty minutes it reminds me its about to die but really doesn't...will be modding it like you did in the near future.

As for the other thing we have generally been using the spike after the switch is opened and the field collapses. I am wondering of any effects it might have to have the radiant spike put into a coil before the field builds instead of pulling it out when it collapses. I am going to play with the idea but at the moment do not have any machine that produces the "pre-spike". so basically what I am getting at is have you dumped that cap accros an inductor or anything besides a battery. Also if the spike comes before the current then with very fast accurate switching you could cause the spike and disconnect the cap before the current thus leaving all the energy in the cap to again trigger the radiant repeatedly from one charge.

[AlvaroHN]

Hi Bob I saw you video last night, do you have a scope to see that cap/s???

best

Alvaro

[BobZilla]

Bob,

the meter thing I think I figured out. This new version from radioshack uses two AA batteries and I put rechargables in it that have a lower resting voltage then the meter wants...so every twenty minutes it reminds me its about to die but really doesn't...will be modding it like you did in the near future.

As for the other thing we have generally been using the spike after the switch is opened and the field collapses. I am wondering of any effects it might have to have the radiant spike put into a coil before the field builds instead of pulling it out when it collapses. I am going to play with the idea but at the moment do not have any machine that produces the "pre-spike". so basically what I am getting at is have you dumped that cap accros an inductor or anything besides a battery. Also if the spike comes before the current then with very fast accurate switching you could cause the spike and disconnect the cap before the current thus leaving all the energy in the cap to again trigger the radiant repeatedly from one charge.

So the meters have changed since I got mine. Originally mine took 9v like you put in a smoke alarm. I simply soldered a plug to the leads to run outside of the built in box and connected a 2 cell 18650 battery box with a switch. Essentially I run it on 8v from the two 18650's in series, it is within the voltage tolerance. I remember when I was using the 9v, I would get a warning of low battery when the rechargable 9v dropped to around 6v,, so my 8v or so never raises the low batt alarm and I have a ton more capacity. I can litterally run them 24x7 for at least a week although I just charge them back up whenever I have down time on the charger.

So in your case I guess they now are looking for 3 or maybe a little more volts from an alkaline AA. You could do as I did and put an external pack of some sort on there, perhaps just a single 18650 which is 4v full charge would work.

You could also try replacing the regular AA you use with a lifepo4 and a blank. Basically one of these cells is equal to two normal AA cells. Did you notice the two cells in the first video that are running the MC of the cap dumper? Those are lifepo4 so I am able to provide the +6volts using only two cells in a standard AA battery holder. One of those cells and a blank might run well in your meter.

Either way you go I'm sure you can get it sorted. Going external pack lets you add a much higher capacity, trying the lifepo4 would be just a straight up swap without soldering or glueing anything to your meter.

Here are the cells and blanks I'm talking about.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-pcs-Pack-D...-/150874332652

http://www.ebay.com/itm/4-x-AA-LR6-7...-/151247356826

As to your second thing about the spike. Keep in mind that current absorbs spikes, no matter if it's the pre or post current spike ( we have been talking about pre) but in whatever concoction we can devise as soon as you introduce current the spike will flatten and follow the current. This 400v thing is demonstrating the fact that it is there. My reason for pointing it out is not so much to say how to capitalize on it, it's an analysis of a much overlooked phase of the switching that we all play with. I would venture to say that 99 percent of everyone playing with these things is focsed on the latter spike which is different. Go back and read what I said with the story of Tesla and what he said and how I was recreating the CONDITIONS that he described. A high voltage already present in the generator at the power plant being connected to the load. He did not say we were running a load and when we unhooked it we say this, he was talking about something all together different. In my example the charged cap is the power generator ALREADY at a high potential, being held back by the diode and the SSR being off. It is a recreation of the CONDITIONS described. When we charge a coil and then switch it off we are not observing the same thing at all.

So more to your point, I would love to find the way to get it to happen with NO CURRENT but unfortunately we do not have a way to do that. Mr Bearden was talking about exactly that but so far we cannot do a perfect model of it. He was talking about running submarines from flashlight batteries by opening the dipole and not closing it, well easier said then done. The bast we can do is open and close very fast and try to harvest what we can in that short window. How can we at least increase efficiency in our effort? By making the on time as SHORT as possible. Current will flow, as I said we have not found the way to make it not flow but with a VERY short on time we can ensure that not much flows. Yes I have done some more exotic strategies that I have not shown and will increase our advantage. In basic form what you want to do is open and close that switch so fast that your cap never goes down, standing at a voltage basically. It's not dumping as most of us think of dumping, we are not trying to build up a potential and introduce that to a lower potential and have cousin current come in and try to level them. As I keep saying we have current in this system by default because the primary machine is feeding the cap dumper and current must flow, it's not the perfect situation we would like to see but it's the best we can do for now. So go back to the original statements I made years ago and look at what the Dancing method is doing.

[BobZilla]

Hi Bob I saw you video last night, do you have a scope to see that cap/s???

best

Alvaro

No sorry I don't. Patrick does have a scope and I think he is going to try and capture that once he starts playing around with it.

[min2oly]

I would be really curious to see if that makes a difference in your test Patrick, please post back whenever you try it.

Guys I have to let you know something that happened, wouldn't want you to have it happen too. I was pushing the dumper pretty hard playing with the +40 thing and I was actually somewhere around 50v at a high rate and it DID blow my SSR. Iy did not happen right away, took a few hours actually so I didn't think anything was going to go wrong with what I was doing but anyway just use caution if you try it. Those crydom D1's are expensive. So for the heck of it I tried replacing the blown SSR with six of those cheap 4A that I linked a few posts back. I just bussed them all together in parallel and tried it out. They seem to work pretty good so far, why would I care to try this? Because six of those things only cost me about 15 bucks. I tried all the settings we just ran through and they took it so on a budget they might be a good alternative to the fancier crydoms.

Anyway you do what ever you do at your own risk anyway, just letting you know what happened to mine.

Yup, those things heat up pretty quickly. I've used them on the front to switch the coil and much heat is produced compared to a simple MJL. I burned up two to date This is a good heads up JB never liked to use the FET on the front, he did like them on the back though.
KR - Patrick

[Brian McNece]

Alright so I am back with another part 2 video. In this one I walk the machine through a few short charge/discharge cycles. In each charge I took one of the caps out of the dumpers circuit so we are looking at increasing the voltage and lowering the capacitance with each step as a result.

Here are the charts:
[ATTACH=CONFIG]5982[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH=CONFIG]5983[/ATTACH]

The video is another sort of long one but it shows a little bit of each cycle as it's happening and has my ramblings. ---Bob

https://1drv.ms/v/s!AmzmftzD-V0miF8q406cus6LiO2w

Bob
Thank you for yet another great video. I am already looking forward to the next one. I am moving along on my build, the bearings arrived on Friday. Now to finish up the stand and get it all assembled and working. Electronics is definitely not my strong suit, but i am looking forward to trying the arduino, you have taken some of the "mystery" out of it, making it seem possible for me.

[BobZilla]

Bob
Thank you for yet another great video. I am already looking forward to the next one. I am moving along on my build, the bearings arrived on Friday. Now to finish up the stand and get it all assembled and working. Electronics is definitely not my strong suit, but i am looking forward to trying the arduino, you have taken some of the "mystery" out of it, making it seem possible for me.

Glad you liked it Brian. I have always been here trying to help and I have shown a ton of stuff over a few years, always with good spirit but sometimes you get a smart alec that joins in. I have a feeling some of my dealings with that has given a lot of people the impression that I am unapproachable, just a pompous ass. I just don't take bull from anyone but that is different. I do not fault anyone for not knowing something or asking questions.

Much to the point if it were not for Patrick and his work I would probably never have understood SS. He was the first to show everyone how to do it, on his old 3p no less ;-) So how can I learn something from him and not try to help others to learn what I have learned, I can't. Patrick also discovered what he called Neg 2 Neg, and nobody got it, I did not either at first. This is what we now call common ground or Gen mode.

Well enough ranting. Brian when you get your MC I suggest that you practice with it before trying to cap dump. Instead of switching a cap with it, hook up a small light bulb to a battery and run the negitive lead through your relay or fet. Practice switching the bulb on and off to make sure the timing is doing what you think it is doing. You could even put your cap into the circuit from the battery but this way it will only charge as high as the battery. What you don't want to do is have too long of an off time when running it for real, and let the cap fill too much. That is dependent on the off time, the on time, the size of the cap and the rate at which the machine feeding it is running. It's a lot of factors to consider but not crazy complicated.

Once you do get a feel for the cap dump with the MC, then you start to understand the advantage of using it. You can change say the on time by only a couple millionths of a second to hold a cap at potential instead of it drifting down. You can start to play with frequency which I will tell you right now is the biggest factor but you guys will get to see all of that yourselves. When you start to play one frequency against another some very interesting things will happen. ---Bob

[min2oly]

Hi Bob,
I see you have two arduino's one for your SS SG and one for your Cap Dumber. Have you tried using one for both or does that have some ill effects?
Thanks - Patrick

[BobZilla]

Hi Bob,
I see you have two arduino's one for your SS SG and one for your Cap Dumber. Have you tried using one for both or does that have some ill effects?
Thanks - Patrick

That's a good point to talk about Patrick. It's two reasons that I do not use one for both. I'm sure if I spent enough time trying to figure out a way around the issues it could be done but honestly I just try to keep it simple and treat each one as a single switch controller.

So problem one is that in the simple loop logic that I have been showing the sketch does not proceed to the next line of code until whatever is before it fires. So imagine you have your dump going on/off well if you put the SS code after that then your going to have dumper on/off ,,SS on/off,, dumper on/off, SS on/off. See what I mean, it executes one line at a time in a loop. Now there are ways to program it differently to get around that and if your interested there are tons of sources for learning aurduino but in the way that I am showing it you are just running a loop.

The second reason and this is more of an issue than the first really is that keep in mind that anything your switching with the MC is going to share a common ground. I have had many unforeseen issues with trying to do too much on the same circuit because we usually are playing with different potentials and switching the ground rather than the pos. It is less of a problem with SSR's because the trigger side of those is opto-isolated but if your using FETS you need to run a connector from the source back to the MC ground or it won't have a complete circuit so it will not fire. That's because on a FET it's not an opto switch but rather a tiny current flows from gate through the fet and back out source. without bringing that source back to the MC ground you do not have a trigger circuit.

It can be done with careful planning and more programing but I just prefer to use one MC per switch.