My Mode 3 - In action

[BobZilla]

Glad it worked for you Patrick.

Hey I have been also trying to replicate the results we saw in that old video and I'm not getting such dramatic push back on the primary either. I'm hoping when I get some real FET's and setup the old SS how it was in that video that it will resemble the old results but for now I'm just trying to be honest about it with you. I also tried bypassing the diode, heck both of them even but it's just not looking the same. I am getting some good results as far as just looking at it as a cap dump but it doesn't seem to be behaving the same. I'm going to keep at it but don't drive yourself crazy trying to get exactly what we saw in the old video because I am having a hard time at it as well and I'm the one that made the damm thing. It was quite a long time ago and I am trying to remember if there were any tricks to it, I do know that I had tried a lot of variations with the timing. It's not so fresh for me anymore because for quite awhile I have shifted over to non cap dumping methods on my little aluminum machine.

[min2oly]

Here is the meterview software. I had to zip it into a single file, otherwise you would have to download each file individually from the one drive. Newer windows boxes can unzip it nativly otherwise use winzip or 7-zip

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AmzmftzD-V0miGKeBBREUW8NnGhJ

Awesome! still working on cleaning things up...

[BobZilla]

Here is the meterview software. I had to zip it into a single file, otherwise you would have to download each file individually from the one drive. Newer windows boxes can unzip it nativly otherwise use winzip or 7-zip

https://1drv.ms/u/s!AmzmftzD-V0miGKeBBREUW8NnGhJ

[min2oly]

Nice, I just uploaded the sketch and am running it right now. Using radio, it sounds very similar.

It's worth a try, regarding radio shack meter view.
Thanks! - Patrick

Hi Patrick,
I have the original software that shipped with my meter, want a copy? It has a folder for (win2000), (win7,XP,Vista), and (W98,ME). I could upload it to my one drive for you, same place I push the video's from.


Here is a sketch from back then and I think it is the actual one that I was running at the end of that video. It's hard to be sure because I made probably over a hundred different iterations while I was experimenting. You may have to adjust some of the times to fit your cap and how your machine is pushing but it's a good place to start with.

By the way I don't know if you thought of it but editing these things can be real easy if you put it in word or wordpad and use the search and replace function. Say like on the sketch if you think all of the 20's should be 15's, just do a search and replace all and whamo it will do them all at once for you, then just copy/paste back into the aurduino window. It makes adjustments quick and easy. A word of caution here though, always turn whatever your feeding the caps with OFF when you change and push up a config. The MC skips out and can overload your cap or do some other nasty stuff that will blow out components. I used to just push on the fly and sometimes you can but depending on how your running it can mess things up big time so just stop feeding the cap before you push a config.


int mosfet = 13 ;
void setup() {
pinMode(mosfet, OUTPUT);}
void loop() {
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (600) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (125) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (200) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (85) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (200) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (85) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (200) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (85) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (200) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (85) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (200) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (85) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (200) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (85) ;


digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
; }

[BobZilla]

Hi Patrick,
I have the original software that shipped with my meter, want a copy? It has a folder for (win2000), (win7,XP,Vista), and (W98,ME). I could upload it to my one drive for you, same place I push the video's from.


Here is a sketch from back then and I think it is the actual one that I was running at the end of that video. It's hard to be sure because I made probably over a hundred different iterations while I was experimenting. You may have to adjust some of the times to fit your cap and how your machine is pushing but it's a good place to start with.

By the way I don't know if you thought of it but editing these things can be real easy if you put it in word or wordpad and use the search and replace function. Say like on the sketch if you think all of the 20's should be 15's, just do a search and replace all and whamo it will do them all at once for you, then just copy/paste back into the aurduino window. It makes adjustments quick and easy. A word of caution here though, always turn whatever your feeding the caps with OFF when you change and push up a config. The MC skips out and can overload your cap or do some other nasty stuff that will blow out components. I used to just push on the fly and sometimes you can but depending on how your running it can mess things up big time so just stop feeding the cap before you push a config.


int mosfet = 13 ;
void setup() {
pinMode(mosfet, OUTPUT);}
void loop() {
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (600) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (125) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (200) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (85) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (200) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (85) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (200) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (85) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (200) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (85) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (200) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (85) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;

digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (200) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (85) ;


digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, LOW) ;
delay (20) ;
digitalWrite (mosfet, HIGH) ;
delay (5) ;
; }

[min2oly]

Bob, in your DancingExample.wmv you have the meter connected directly to the primary battery I believe. These are True RMS meters and I do believe it is sensing the correct voltage there. While I have some energy coming back to the primary on my battery, it is never above the resting voltage as you have shown. where you using the longer sketch toward the beginning of this thread for that one? I think the shortest ON/dump time was 65 on that one? If not would you mind posting another base sketch I can work from? I think I asked a similar quesiton before and I know you also shared one in the video, just hoping for a nice baseline to start from...

I tried installing the meterview on an old windows xp laptop, no drivers for the meter thinking about getting the CBA IV
KR-Patrick

[BobZilla]

Hi Patrick,
Hey I just want you to know I didn't mean anything in a condescending way, maybe my choice of words didn't convey my thoughts on it in the best way. I don't know exactly why/what we see there and, we may never know. I am just putting fourth some theory that we also can probably never verify.

I have ordered some FET's and diodes to build that old machine back into the original configuration. I think the FET's actually do a better job than the SSR's but can't really be certain about it. It seems like they have a faster off which leads to cleaner over all switching. Don't get me wrong guys the SSR's work good in place of FET's in all of these applications as I have described but their may be just a slight advantage with the FET. It is most likely because of the grounding with the FET as opposed to the isolation of the SSR.

Mouser had my favorite FET's on back order so I got some similar ones instead, these are rated higher on current too. What makes this line so good I think is the rise/fall times which is why I originally tried them out. Patrick I wonder if you ordered yours from mouser, they may be on back order unless you got some before they ran out. ;-(

Here is what I will be trying:

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/...MQ0xT1SA%3d%3d

[min2oly]

Hi Bob,
Yes, there is a reason the meter is behaving that way and I'm keeping my mind open to ALL possibilities. My intention is surely not to "shut up" the meter. I don't think it is switching scale, I just don't think it knows what to do with that quick voltage drop. After much research on the subject, I'm not even sure I trust my Owon digital scope.

At this point I’m more interested in what one of your runs looks like - similar to the demo you did when the primary was at 11.95 and the charging was at 13+ using the dancing dipoles method. I'm curious to see what the meter view will show when manually placed in 000.0 range or even 00.00. However, I am more curious to see how differently the primary battery behaves with that type of cap "dipole dance" dumping. I do see charge going back to the primary with my setup, but i'm not using your dancing dipole method yet.

Still waiting on FET’s!

[BobZilla]

Solved it... on mine anyway. When I turn the meter on and move the dial to detect DC voltage. The meter is in auto mode, it will adjust according to the voltage it sees. When the voltage is changing too fast or goes out of range it can not adjust quickly enough and gives a false reading. What I did on mine was to manually set it by pressing the "range" button to get 000.0 this forces the meter to read in terms of hundreds...
Now it looks/reads just like my other meter.
http://support.radioshack.com/suppor...oc67/67314.pdf page 19-20
I'm still going to pursue this and I am very interested in the dancing pulses. When I get everything setup I'll do some long runs. This is fun!
Kind Regards - Patrick

I'm going to beat the dead horse Lol ,,,

Patrick I don't know that making it shut up is solving anything though. There is a reason for the meter behaving that way, it is an indicator of something. It is switching scale but the question would be why. If you run a cap up to 40v the meter reads it just fine (I mean without dumping). We saw on the smaller cap with faster dumps that it was switching scale way below 40, more like 32-34 or so. Why should it switch scale then if we are not ever going over said voltage. I'm not trying to offer an answer to it but it shouldn't switch scale unless there is a higher voltage and it thinks it needs to. By manually switching the scale it probably adds that extra resistance to the meter that I was talking about.

Anyway it was worth pursuing this so thanks for all the back and fourth with it. To me it is still all that it ever was, an indicator.

[min2oly]

Solved it... on mine anyway. When I turn the meter on and move the dial to detect DC voltage. The meter is in auto mode, it will adjust according to the voltage it sees. When the voltage is changing too fast or goes out of range it can not adjust quickly enough and gives a false reading. What I did on mine was to manually set it by pressing the "range" button to get 000.0 this forces the meter to read in terms of hundreds...
Now it looks/reads just like my other meter.
http://support.radioshack.com/suppor...oc67/67314.pdf page 19-20
I'm still going to pursue this and I am very interested in the dancing pulses. When I get everything setup I'll do some long runs. This is fun!
Kind Regards - Patrick

[BobZilla]

Better digital meters use a FET input for the purpose of almost eliminating circuit loading. I do not know your particular meter enough to say if that is the case here. But if it does, could that have a bearing on what you are seeing?

Michael

Michael that is a very good guess at it, I could see how that could be. If it is using a FET then then a rapid voltage increase would send it through the roof and because it's a FET practically no current would need to flow. I don't know if that is the case but it is very plausible. Thanks for pointing that out. These meters are on the high end of things so perhaps that's the difference.

[Michael Luton]

Better digital meters use a FET input for the purpose of almost eliminating circuit loading. I do not know your particular meter enough to say if that is the case here. But if it does, could that have a bearing on what you are seeing?

Michael

[BobZilla]

Hi Patrick,
Yes your diagram look right to me. If you go to high on capacity you may want to put more FET's in parallel to handle more current but teh flip side of that is a single device switches more cleanly by itself.

So the video looks good man. Your meter is doing it too, yes you don't have the software hooked up but anyone can see it's the same thing as mine. So no spike to be found on the O-scope then, well that disappoints me a little but we have to go with the facts and not our hopes right. The only thing I would say is that despite what meters may show I saw some serious gains with the dancing method and nothing would convince me that there is nothing special going on. I know your not saying that but I'm just stating it for everyone.

I have been trying to understand and theorize about why that stupid meter does what it does. It is sensing something there and we know how to make it happen or to make it not happen. I am thinking that perhaps internally when the meter first senses voltage it chooses an internal resistor to sample with, you know it may use serveral resistors depending on the voltage it senses. So it is running along on teh resistor it has chosen to use for that scale of voltage but perhaps we are seeing an inrush of voltage (maybe it's not 400 volts but something very quickly) and it reacts to the sudden change by flipping into a different scale and sampling resistor, but then that rush is gone again so it flips back to the original sample. Maybe this won't make sense but I'm just saying that maybe because the meter has "auto" sensing it starts at one scale and then flips over to the setup it would have used if we were on higher voltage to start. Anyway it's a real stretch but I can't ignore that that meter is reacting to something that we can control at will.

[min2oly]

Ok - I took another shot at it and am able to get the meter to behave like yours:

I'm still pursuing the dancing dipoles and FETs should get here by this weekend. I like what it's doing on the charge and primary. I've also eliminated the diode alltogether as well as used some High Voltage Diodes from experimenting with Aaron's plasma spark. Nothing yet...
KR - Patrick

[min2oly]

This is how I'm doing it below, although I have put the meter and the scope all over the place to check out various things, but this is how you have it when using a FET right?



Now one other thing comes to mind. Will it do this even if you get rid of the analog meters? I can't see why it wouldn't, if anything those analog meters are dampening the effect... but just checking.