New Two Coil Monopole

[Branch Gordon]

I follow what you are saying man. I have one spike anywhere from 0 to 50 ohms on my POT. I haven't ever been able to hear anything from my coil though...maybe my wheel spinning is too loud. I have a stethoscope....wonder if I hold that next to the coil if I could hear something...

I am going to begin the comparison charts. I can tell already that this is going to be hard to measure in a precise way so it is only going to serve as a general observation. Part of the trouble is that within each setting for spikes there is a lot of available tuning. For example the first set of charts will be the 1 spike tuning.

With the one spike tuning I can dial down the resistance to where I am drawing about 1 1/2 amp and it will indeed show 1 spike however this range can be dialed up to 3 amps or even higher, all ranges between show one spike but the charging effects are not the same.

What it has boiled down to for me is to listen to the coil and find a particular resonance which can be heard. For example in some testing I was doing before running the charts I found that at around 1 1/2 A the charging was there but much slower than if I just give it another 500ma. The chart would be at about 13.25 climbing but as I push up just a little bit it would jump right up to 14.75 and climb there, I am talking about a ceiling on the charge. Both will climb but it is like a spot where the charging increases big time. You can here it in the coils too; a bit of a buzzing sound.

Now if you over do it the wheel will start to slow down and it is not beneficial, again it is a tuning thing that I have developed a feel for. So if you are with me so far the method I have decided to go for to try and keep all three settings of a sort of equal comparison is going to be to set the spikes either 1, 2, or 3 for whichever we are charting on and then tune within that range to where the resonance becomes audible.

Where that turns out to be within each setting is actually to bring it to speed where it is transitioning from more spikes to less and then go about half way up from there to the next shift. So say it is seeing three spikes and I dial it up to two,, ok at that point if I back off half of the way between the two than that is just about right. Don’t know if that makes sense but it is just something that can be observed when standing in front of the machine and listening to what is going on.

I could run it at the bare minimum to keep in a particular spike range but I have found that the charging is much better if I give it that little bit extra. The return for adding a little draw seems to be much greater than trying to conserve it. If I had a scope to look at I assume that the spikes are gaining a lot of amplitude in that small tuning window.

Anyway here is the first chart. I started out timing everything nice and even but I didn’t realize the software was going to change the scale on me and made it hard to keep exactly on.



It starts out with a rest of 1000 seconds, then the load for 9000 seconds, then rest 1000, then charge 7000. Originally the chart was scaling at 1000 second notches across the bottom but then it switched up on me so these two are roughly the same times and draw rate on the primary, but not exactly.. This is obviously not tightly controlled lab experimentation ;-) but at least you will be able to see a few examples of the charges at different settings.

The second chart is voltage on the primary so really the only activity is when the charge starts, otherwise it is just resting while the secondary is being loaded and rested.

The primary is a Wal-Mart deep cell 109AH and the charge battery is a recovered garden tractor battery. The machine is capable of charging much larger batteries but for these tests I wanted to use something that would charge and drain fast.

This is with the machine set to 1 spike. The rpm was 350 and the draw rate was about 2300ma. The load is a auto bulb rated at 13v 7.5 watt.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2852[/ATTACH]


[ATTACH=CONFIG]2853[/ATTACH]


Next update will be runs made on 2 spikes at a lower draw rate & RPM

[BobZilla]

Here is the chart from the 2 spike setting.

The second one is a little rough because I fiddled around with the pot and couldn't get it exactly where it was on the first one.

the first charge was pulling 1A even and RPM was 233, the second was pulling 1100ma and RPM was 244. It was jumping around that spot I was talking about previously and I was trying to smooth it out. It was still well within the 2 spike setting but as I said before there is a lot of tuning within each setting. Eventually I need to put a fixed resistor switch on the machine but I am still tying to find optimum values with the pot.

Also it was late at the end of the run so I just shut it off and let the charts keep running over night.





Next up will be 3 spike tuning.

[BobZilla]

I am going to begin the comparison charts. I can tell already that this is going to be hard to measure in a precise way so it is only going to serve as a general observation. Part of the trouble is that within each setting for spikes there is a lot of available tuning. For example the first set of charts will be the 1 spike tuning.

With the one spike tuning I can dial down the resistance to where I am drawing about 1 1/2 amp and it will indeed show 1 spike however this range can be dialed up to 3 amps or even higher, all ranges between show one spike but the charging effects are not the same.

What it has boiled down to for me is to listen to the coil and find a particular resonance which can be heard. For example in some testing I was doing before running the charts I found that at around 1 1/2 A the charging was there but much slower than if I just give it another 500ma. The chart would be at about 13.25 climbing but as I push up just a little bit it would jump right up to 14.75 and climb there, I am talking about a ceiling on the charge. Both will climb but it is like a spot where the charging increases big time. You can here it in the coils too; a bit of a buzzing sound.

Now if you over do it the wheel will start to slow down and it is not beneficial, again it is a tuning thing that I have developed a feel for. So if you are with me so far the method I have decided to go for to try and keep all three settings of a sort of equal comparison is going to be to set the spikes either 1, 2, or 3 for whichever we are charting on and then tune within that range to where the resonance becomes audible.

Where that turns out to be within each setting is actually to bring it to speed where it is transitioning from more spikes to less and then go about half way up from there to the next shift. So say it is seeing three spikes and I dial it up to two,, ok at that point if I back off half of the way between the two than that is just about right. Don’t know if that makes sense but it is just something that can be observed when standing in front of the machine and listening to what is going on.

I could run it at the bare minimum to keep in a particular spike range but I have found that the charging is much better if I give it that little bit extra. The return for adding a little draw seems to be much greater than trying to conserve it. If I had a scope to look at I assume that the spikes are gaining a lot of amplitude in that small tuning window.

Anyway here is the first chart. I started out timing everything nice and even but I didn’t realize the software was going to change the scale on me and made it hard to keep exactly on.



It starts out with a rest of 1000 seconds, then the load for 9000 seconds, then rest 1000, then charge 7000. Originally the chart was scaling at 1000 second notches across the bottom but then it switched up on me so these two are roughly the same times and draw rate on the primary, but not exactly.. This is obviously not tightly controlled lab experimentation ;-) but at least you will be able to see a few examples of the charges at different settings.

The second chart is voltage on the primary so really the only activity is when the charge starts, otherwise it is just resting while the secondary is being loaded and rested.

The primary is a Wal-Mart deep cell 109AH and the charge battery is a recovered garden tractor battery. The machine is capable of charging much larger batteries but for these tests I wanted to use something that would charge and drain fast.

This is with the machine set to 1 spike. The rpm was 350 and the draw rate was about 2300ma. The load is a auto bulb rated at 13v 7.5 watt.







Next update will be runs made on 2 spikes at a lower draw rate & RPM

[BobZilla]

I have made some adjustments to the new machine. I changed out the old axle and bearings for a larger diameter (3/4in) and the new bearings are BALL type instead of the roller type I had in it before.

The machine is running much better now! I removed the covers on the new bearings and washed them with kerosene to remove the grease. Then I sprayed them down with break cleaner to remove any oil residue. Finally I lubed them with Tri-Flow (thanks Tom great suggestion).

I have not done a free spin test just because it is so hard to alighn the coils that I don’t want to take them down but I can say that the wheel is spinning very freely on this new axle.

I probably still have some adjustments to make but over all the machine is running pretty good now, much better than previously. I have noticed that the wheel has a slight warp in it but it is not all too bad, I just have to accept it and move on.

Here is a picture of the axle and wheel standing still. You can see the timing mark in this shot so you know what your seeing in the video as far as the width of the mark.



Now moving forward I intend to do some runs as I said before with one pulse, two and three pulses per pass to compare. I shot this video to show what I am talking about so when I present the run charts you can see an example of how it runs with these different timings. The timing light is made from one red and one blue led, each in the opposite direction so that one catches the charge and the other the discharge wave.

When looking at the video you can see the width of the charge on the spokes very well but the actual timing mark is on the rim edge and you need to look closer to see that. Right of the top I notice that if you compare one pulse to three there is a drastic difference in the width of the charge. Three seems more defined and sharper. Within each setting it can be adjusted a bit but the video is just to show in basic terms what I am looking at.

I do not have an O-scope guys so this is about as good as it gets for my analysis capabilities. I will be following up with some run charts done at various settings. I also have a cap dumper we could employ later on but for now I am focused on the machines operation in mode one.

Video Link:
https://files.secureserver.net/0sOKvi4dxR0CC0

[BobZilla]

Hi Gary,
I agree with what your saying. I guess I thought those would be great but sometimes things don't work out as we expect. Your exactly right about my rod, it is cold rolled variety from the hardware store.

Everyone seems to be pointing to the same conclusion in that there must be too much friction. I didn't really think about the surface area of those rollers but since you point it out it makes sense. I don't need thousand pound loads on it anyway Lol

Thanks for the advise.

Still looking for more info about one vs two vs three spikes but perhaps when I get smoother bearings I can get to one spike with a reasonable draw.

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Bob,

The outer bearings that it spins on are roller bearings, not ball bearings.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]2818[/ATTACH]

As you can see from the specs these things are self alighning, can carry 1040 pounds, and are rated up to 22k RPM

These bearings are great for an application that utilizes a hardened, precision ground shaft with light oil lubrication. They will be very rough running with a cold rolled and/or cadmium plated shaft from a hardware store. Un-caged needle bearings will carry very heavy loads but produce more friction than ball bearings because of their greater surface contact area even when used with the proper hardened shaft.

Replace them with ball bearings. Then remove the seals, clean out the old lube, and lightly re-lube with tri-flow or equivalent. This will produce a much smoother and freer running wheel with much greater free spin time!

[BobZilla]

I really appreciate all of the advice guys.

I have been playing around with the new machine and notice something that seems to go against what is commonly believed when it comes to those pulses per magnet. Now I should say that these are just on the fly observations and may not pan out if I take the time to do some more thorough testing which I do plan to do. It's just right now I am fiddling with the thing.

So what I have noticed is that I actually get a better charge rate from three pulses than two or even one. On my draw it works out to be for three pulses I draw 700ma, 2 pulses 1A, one pulse about 2 1/4 A.

Now what I mean about the charge rate is that watching on a charge curve it climbs much more rapidly at the lower RPM and draw which produces three pulses (using led timing indicator). The ceiling is lower of course but the rate at which it climbs seems faster. Just to get some quick results to see if this pans out I am going to charge my garden battery up fully and drain it for a given amount of time with a 7 watt bulb. Then I will charge it back up with each of these three settings draining it off the same each time so I can compare.

I am at a disadvantage because I do not have an O-scope to really see what is going on like the shape of the spike or if in fact my led thing is telling me the truth about the number of spikes. I have set up a new led timer how Mr. Bedini showed in one of the vacuum video's with a red and a blue out of phase with each other so I can see the charge and the discharge. I was looking at that wheel of his, the original and you know the spacing looks about the same as what I have on this one and I think the number of magnets is the same (16) but I could be wrong about that.

Don't get me wrong guys this machine is charging batteries fantastic, I am just fixated on this single pulse which I cannot obtain without drawing harder than I want too with it.

Can anyone really elaborate on why we need one spike? If I remember correctly the single spike shows up on a scope with much greater voltage and a cleaner sharper point than if you have multiple spikes, is that right? What is the cause and effect of running with two or three verses the prescribed one spike? As I say I know what it is supposed to be doing but with this particular machine I am seeing better charging rate with three and it cost much less on the draw.

I will post back with those charge curves after I get a chance to run through them.

[Tom C]

magnets are related to current draw so more magnets more events per rpm higher draw.... its fairly linear. with regular north magnets a single stack is fine unless you are having trouble getting the transistors to fire for whatever reason. the mass will do you no good if friction is to high on the bearings. I suggest triflow with the race covers removed.

I wish I had a better physics background but friction is one of the most critical factors in storing energy in the perimeter of a spinning object. the less friction the more inertia is conserved to maintain rotation.

Tom C

[John_Koorn]

Bob, more mass means you should get a longer free spin time as there is more kinetic energy stored in the wheel.

John K.

[BobZilla]

Tom I will have to check on that free spin for you but I don't think it will be comparable to most other systems because of the wheel itself is so darn heavy. I knew this would present special issues but the thougt behind it was that one I get up to speed the extra weight would help out with running mechanical loads from the inertia. I am also thinking that I need to just run it awhile to make sure the bearings and the axle get smoothed out. I don't really know if there is any break in period for them but perhaps they will smooth up after awhile. I could also try different lube. Right now I just have some 3 in 1 oil on them. I thought about maybe some white lithium grease instead.


Any opinion about the magnets, I mean adding the others? As it is I spaced them out every other spoke so I could double up, just need to be careful not to crowd those poles. I would hate to go to all the trouble of installing them and find out I have killed the darn thing.

I have checked very closely on the spacing and how the two cores line up to the magnets. Everything is in very tight tolerance as I have it adjusted. The spacing was easy to get even because I used the spokes as a guide and the coil mounts have wiggle room. I drilled out larger holes where the bolt goes through so I can slide the coil a little in any direction to adjust. As best I can see they are alighned very well.

I did try running it on just one coil before I fixed the axle and it ran about the same. I will have to try it again to see how it is doing now. It was producing the same spikes on one coil as two. I was really testing to see if the two spikes had anything to do with having two coils. I knew logically it didn't but I just wanted to make sure and it was not that.

Ultimately I am leaning towards doubling up on those magnets but I'm not quite there yet. I am thinking that because it at least seems that with the wide spacing the core just cannot attract the next one in with enough force to get the speed up where it needs to be, accept when I push way to much juice on the trigger. More magnets should help pull in faster with less force needed but i just don't know. It's a lot of work just to find out if I am right ;-)

[Tom C]

Bob,

what is the freewheel time with your modifications? run it on one coil..... if it runs faster on one coil than on two then either your magnets aren't exact or the coil spacing is not perfect multi coil machines are hard to tune

Tom C

[BobZilla]

Yoe,

The thing to keep in mind about this is that it is not a bike wheel. This thing is supper heavy duty and super heavy in general. It is one of those wheels you would put on a utility cart. That is why I am using the 1/2 inch axle, to support all the weight. It originally came with 3/4 in bearings which at the time I thought would be too big so I down sized the inner bearings to 1/2 inch and got a steel rod for an axle. The good thing is I can always go bigger because the hub will accept larger bearings.

Here is the wheel:
http://www.northerntool.com/shop/too...1764_200331764

The outer bearings that it spins on are roller bearings, not ball bearings.



As you can see from the specs these things are self alighning, can carry 1040 pounds, and are rated up to 22k RPM

[Yoe777]

Looks like you were constructing part of my answer soon as I was writing it.

[Yoe777]

What shaft / bearings did you use? Did the new rod just fit in after the old one?

Thanks for the pics!

[BobZilla]

Ok so I went to the hardware store to get a pipe and the only thing I could find that would fit was "steel tube". I wanted to find heavy duty pipe but they didn't have it with a 1/2 inch outer diameter. I got the tube and got home with it. When I slid it into the bearings I noticed that it was not a good round tube and would not make for a good axle, I like the idea but the material I found was not going to be suitable.

So I worked on the axle I already was using. I took and drilled a hole in it and slid a cotter pin through along with a few washers. That replaces the PVC/zip tie spacer thing I had on it before. This seems to give much less friction and I also carefully leveled out the axle as best I could.



I took out the inner bearings that are glued shut and cleaned them off & re-glued them then presses them back into the hub. Over all it is much smoother now than it was. I may have had one of those pressed in a little crooked or something before, not sure. I used a big socket this time that fit over the whole thing and smacked it in with a hammer and they seem to have set evenly into the hub.

So I let all the fresh glue dry over night and started playing with it this morning. I am still getting the same result as far as timing goes but it is running smoother mechanically. I made a short video showing what I am up against here. It starts out showing one pulse but the draw is way up at 2 1/4 or so. Then I back it down to where I have been runnig on the two pulse at around 1A draw and also a little lower just to show the multiple spikes.

https://files.secureserver.net/0sm4O8XAAipOba


I was looking at it and thinking maybe I do not have the magnets spaced close enough? I didn't want to over lap the poles so they are fairly far apart. What do you guys think? In the picture below you can see how they are spaced and I also put one next to the timing magnet to show the spacing if I were to double up on them. I could slip a magnet in between all of them and have it come out even if I wanted too but I'm just not sure if it would help.