Winding 4 (or five) filar coil for a 10 coiler

[Howard Wetsman]

There has been much discussion in the old Yahoo groups 2 and 4 as well as here about replacing the #23 8-filar coils on the r-charge 10 coiler. I know there are also issues of replacing the electronics with matched components and replacing the rotor, but I'd like to concentrate here on the coils.
As I understand the discussion so far:
1. Wire must be #18
2. Coils must be 4 filar (except the master which needs a 5th for trigger - it remains unclear to me if trigger needs to have one wind to itself before starting power coil windings)
3. each wire should be matched to a resistance of 1.2 ohms after allowing for any resistance given by the leads used to measure the resistance. This should be done by winding and then cutting the wires down to 1.2 ohms resistance.
4. Each wire should also be matched for impedance using a LCR meter; this should also be done by winding the wires and cutting down to the proper impedance. I don't understand which to do first, resistance or impedance.
5. wires should be litzed, but it's not clear to me if the trigger should be litzed with the power wires on the master coil
6. core should be copper coated R60 welding rod. The current coils that came with the 10 coiler has significant amount of core sticking out on both ends to help sticking in the coil holder on one side and about 1/4 inch on the side that is close to the rotor.
7. Finally, it's not clear to me that all this has been passed by John B, but most of this is from people who quoted what they heard from him. Also not clear is if the coils need to be matched to electronics on board or this is handled by the tuning.

This seems to be quite a complicated technical undertaking which will require a lot of space and extra hands or special winding jig as well as LCR meter, if not other equipment I'm not aware of yet. The great advantage, I thought, of buying coils from R-charge was that Rick said each coil was wound the same way every time. That may be but there is no source, that I'm aware of, of coils that fit the specifics above (if indeed they are correct). It seems we're each in a position of winding our own coils which should please the ebay sellers of LCR meters. ;-)

If all these specs work out to be true, or whatever specs we get from John B, it would seem that many of us are in need of new coils. If anyone is in a position of producing coils to the exact parameters that John B requires for the multi-coil machine, I'm sure there are some of us interested in buying them from you rather than each of us investing in the coil winding infrastructure.

I'd love to hear anything wrong with the above specs, or if anyone is interested in winding coils commercially.
thanks,
howard

[Ren]

Hi Howard,

Here is what I think. Others may vary in their opinion, but I have tried to base this info on Johns advice, or people that have communicated directly with him. Anyone chime in if Ive missed something or there are errors.

1. Wire doesnt HAVE to be #18, but that is What John recommends for this build (powerful energizer). For extra clarity here I believe JB was using a 1mm AWG 18, SWG and AWG are slightly different, so a diameter is more accurate if you dont include the prefix SWG or AWG. (SWG 18 is not the same as AWG 18).

2. Yes all coils are 4 filar, bar the master coil which is 5. It is common to see the trigger wire as a separate gauge (usually thinner) but in this case all wires are the same gauge. ALL wires are wound at the same time, pure 1:1.

3. I cant find the quote but I remember JB saying he measured ALL wires @ 150ft (be exact as possible) then grouped and litzed then wound onto coil formers. If all wires are the same length, then there is no need to "cut down" to a certain ohmage. I believe that the 150ft will give you your 1.2 ohms or thereabouts. There are ways to calculate ohms per feet, look at the wire gauge charts. Make sure you are looking at the correct wire (diameter), this can be further complicated by some wire gauge charts stating the gauge of the wire with/without insulation/coating. Your best bet is to locate AWG #18, and double check its 1mm.

4. If all wires are equal lengths then all ohms readings should be equal. Correspondingly if all TURNS per coil are equal then inductances should all be equal too. One turn more and your inductance will be slightly higher. Im not certain, but I think all coil formers would need to be the same dimensions too for this to work, but this is not usually a problem. The important things that will affect inductance are turns, and core material. So inductance could read higher or lower if, for example, all turns are equal, but one core has more welding rods than another. So match your cores too, length and number of welding rods. If all of this is followed strictly, then there should be no need to test for inductance, but hey, even the pro's double check their work.

5. Litzing complicates the whole procedure somewhat. Obviously John did it for a reason, but if you cant get a neat uniform litz on all your coils you are going to have strands that come up short, or long, or little kinks or loose spots, or more twists at one point than another etc etc. Litzing can be a nightmare if you dont think it through and plan it, at least have another set of hands to help. Erwin describes a method on his pages, as does Marcia in a thread on this forum. I believe JB used a drill, with the wires anchored at both ends. No special treatment for the trigger, he gets treated like every other winding till its time to hook up circuits.

6. YES to r60 (rusted r60 is fine, and may actually offer some advantages). John has hinted at the significance of cores protruding outside the coil formers before, but in relation to the Ferris wheel I believe. For SG I would do what Trancedrum did, study every picture you can. This is one of my favourite pages. I recommend it highly. New Page 2 Here it would seem that enough of the core protrudes out the rear to assist in fixing it to the coil former, and that it is flush with the former on the front (rotor side).

7. Matching of coils is done as above, matching of circuits is in reference to the components, specifically transistors, but also resistors and diodes. Ever picked up a pack of resistors from your store and seen 100r 5%? This means the resistors are 100 ohms give or take 5%. You can pay more for 2% (better QC) or better still buy a good quality milliohm meter and a stack of resistors and pick the best of the bunch. Beta matching transistors is a whole chapter by itself.

So now perhaps people will get some idea as to the lengths one can go in the pursuit of perfection. (This doesnt even go into mechanical tolerances, materials used, circuit layout and positioning, grading of magnet strength, balancing etc etc. Yes it is complicated, yes it is technical, this is why a true multi coiler is such a daunting task. If you had a cloning machine, no worries, build one perfect coil and just clone away, lol. Or just clone Johns machine!

BTW, good luck finding a coil/motor rewinding shop to do anything more than three strands, let alone litzing. Most of the shops I talked to needed me to explain what "quadfilar" meant. You can buy professionally litzed wire but you'll need a bootload (trunkload for our American friends) of bullion to get it. You are building a rotary magnetic amplifier here. All non mechanical parts (coils and circuits) are mimicing an audio amplifier, and are built by John as such. When you are talking about the amplification of signals and transients and clean wave forms (and that is exactly what this is about) then the slightest variances can make all the difference.

More and more people are starting to realize this aint no back yard homebrew, but, as proved recently it can be done with dedication, and even get the nod of approval by John at the end of it.

JB, feel free to put me in my place on any of the above, this is what I have gleaned from studying all I can find on these topics, from the other side of the world looking at my little computer screen for the last 8 or so years. It is entirely possible that some of the info is lost in translation or I have missed other vital points.

Regards

[Michael McIsaac]

Hi Howard

I'v been thinking along these lines as well when working on the Monopole 4 Sr. and trying to improve it along the lines of Tracedrum's wonderful setup. These coils are 100 feet with 8 strands, if I remember correctly. Changing the coils to the 150 ft. 1.2 ohm specs. appears at this time to be a large stumbling block for me. I've been wondering if these coils can produce the same sort of results as Tracedrum's 6 coiler but with different base, branch resistors, and tuning, etc. I just don't know enough to have an answer to that question yet. I suspect not but maybe someone else has a better idea. I notice that the 100 foot 8 filars are still being sold so maybe there is a way. Being able to purchase the 150 foot coils pre-wound would really be nice and avoid the infrastucture costs as you mention.

Meanwhile I've added the copper coil buses to my machine and am planning the component matching phase. I now have a scope which appears to be helping me see how the boards with the most mismatched components have a less sharp spike climb and affect the overall peak spike of the whole system. Or so it seems. Gotta keep learning.

Mike
(formerly Duesenburg on Monopole groups.)

[Howard Wetsman]

Ren and Mike,
Thanks. I'm only just seeing this today as it was referenced in another post. It's very helpful and I'm sorry I didn't see it before.
While waiting to see how JB will recommend redoing the 10 coiler rotor, I've started building 4 transistor matched component circuits. I put induction loops of copper tubing around the 10 coiler for the primary negative buss and the primary pos/secondary neg buss. I have a loop with an extension around the axle for the secondary positive. On each of the circuits I've also put a 12 AWG loop for the base resistors. All the resistors are matched to within .1ohm, all diodes within .003 for drop, I used a complex component analyzer to match the transistors so I'm not sure if they are beta matched or not. I've got 4 loops of #18 AWG on spools and waiting to wind my fifth. Then I'll try to get all five together on the same coil. Don't know how I'll litz them yet as I really don't have the space to stretch them out straight.
Until I change the rotor, or at least get the new coil wound, I'm using the circuits to handle 7 strands from a 8 filar #23AWG coil I got from Rick. I've set it up in solid state fashion with the CPD modification. Just doing the first charging run now.
thanks again for the advice. I will look at Trancedrum's page. I had wondered about the 1:1 with the trigger because I heard from someone else who visited John's shop that he thought the trigger had been wound around the core for one layer before the litzed power wires were put on. While I didn't here that from John, it was a pretty close source so I'm still a little tentative about that. Hopefully, John will clear it up.
h

[Prinsloo]

@ Michael McIsaac

Where can I get to see Tracedrum's build, can you post a link please.

T

[Prinsloo]

Hey Guys

where can I get to see Tracedrum's build that's mentioned, can some one post a link or something please?

Anyone !

@ Howard, can I ask you to post the CPD circuit you use on your SS SSG please,

@ REN thanks brilliant summery of information you posted, does help a lot to get things in order, where can I get information on Beta matching the transistor, diodes, etc.

Thank you

Theuns

[John_Koorn]

Theuns, do a search of trancedrum's posts on this forum. In one of them there is a link to a YouTube video.

John K.

[Prinsloo]

Hi John K,

I did try the search, no post of Trancedrum/Tracedrum on this forum, comes back to 1 time mentioned by Ren in the above thread.

Any other places I can try to see Trancedrums build?

Where can I get information on how to Beta matching the transistor, diodes, etc. I need to get this right, can you please help me I need this information as well.

Theunis

[alfinip2000]

you can browse min2oly on youtube channel, he's show hows to do it..this is the circuit diagram,

Cheers,
Alfin

[Prinsloo]

Thanks Alfinip2000

Can you give me a short description how to use the Transistor Beta Tester .

Thanks

Theunis

[alfinip2000]

Theunis,make the circuit as describe above...then connect the transistor,and your AVO (Ma) will show the number,match this number with other transistor..then you have if
Have a nice learning..
Cheers,
Alfin

[Prinsloo]

Alfinip2000

Thank You will give it ago,

Theunis

[Prinsloo]

Hi Alfinip2000

Do you use the same circuit to match the diodes? or is there a different way of doing that.?

Thanks

Theuns

[alfinip2000]

theunis,yes i did use that circuit..
alfin

[Prinsloo]

Beta Transistor tester

alfinip2000

Thanks , will try it.

What is a good setting to start on the 25K pot?

Theunis