cap dump schematic questions

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

My wife and I are busy packing today for vacation and will be on the road through the weekend. It will be the middle of next week before I'll have the time available to respond to your latest questions.

Regards,
Gary Hammond,

[pearldragon]

Hi All,

I just went ahead and made the timing circuit, see enclosed PDF for the schematic and parts list, with the following notes:

Note 1:
The shop where I bought my parts did not have the 0.8uF, 25V capacitor, so I exchanged it for a 1uF, 35V version.

Note 2:
Instead of using two 1MOhm potmeter, I used four 0.5Mohm potmeters to be able to tune a bit more accurately. In other words item nr 10 = 2x0.5MOhm in series and nr 11 = 2x0.5MOhm in series. Also I added 1kOhm resistors in front of them as Peter optionally mentions/suggests in the Handbook.

I tested my circuit by putting 12V on the input of the circuit and connected my Fluke 115 to the input of the Opto coupler, measuring frequency. See attachment for a photo.

What I noticed was
-When I turn the item nr 10 (potmeters) to the extreme minimum, so they have (almost) no resistance, the 2N4401 Transistor (item nr 2) gets hot and the Opto coupler (item nr 3) gets hot too. Especially the Opto coupler heats up fast to the point that I cannot put my finger on it any more (switched of the power supply when this happened.

My question are:
-Is it normal that the above mentioned components get so hot?
-if not, can anybody tell me where I made a mistake/used a wrong component?
Update 2020-02-04 -> should I try to increase the resistance of item nr 9? From 5kOhm to e.g. 10kOhm?

Many Thanks in advance,
Rodolphe

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

Hi All,

I’m in the process of building the 555 cap dump circuit, like Cmor, from page 47 of the Intermediate handbook. And have a couple of questions still.

Question 1: Removing diodes
Regarding your (Gary) post #20:

Do you mean I have to remove the 1n4007 diodes from my circuit board? As indicated in image 2 of the attachment?
Or was this only applicable for the schematic with the separate output winding as in image 1 of the attachment?
In the Intermediate handbook I’ve not read anything about removing diodes? (in you post you wrote 2n4007, but I assume you meant 1n4007?)

Question 2: MOSFETS
Regarding your (Gary) post #33:

2a: The IRFP260 MOSFETS I have selected at the moment can handle a max of 50A. So if they are unmatched, the first MOSFET that triggers will burn out pretty quick if the amperage goes over 100A as you write…
So if the discharge would take place very fast (see calculations in question 2c.), what would be the point of using more MOSFETS if they are not matched, if they first one would get the majority of the amperage (and thus burn out)?

2b: How can I match MOSFETS / how did you solve this? Did you buy IRFP260 MOSFETS that can candle 100A+?
Is it possible to make a little device to match the MOSFETS like the one mentioned in the Intermediate Handbook to match the normal transistors?
The MOSFETs I had selected are these: https://docs.rs-online.com/54ee/0900766b80791211.pdf

2c: I just did a quick calculation to see in which time frame the capacitors would discharge to get the discharge amperage over a 100A as you mentioned (assuming that they would be charged to the max). I calculation that the discharge would take place in 0.022 seconds, see Calculation 1 in the attachment. Is this the ballpark figure you used to calculate your 100A?
Now in the Intermediate handbook Peter talks about charging the Capacitors to roughly 2x the voltage of the battery. So if I do the same calculation, but now charging up to 30V (instead of 80V), and use the previous calculated 0.022 seconds for discharge time, I get to an amperage of 41A, see Calculation 2 in the attachment. This is something that even 1 MOSFET with a 50A rating would be able to handle.

Question 3: Risk to damage the 7812 chip -> Zener diode?
The voltage regulator 7812 chips that I looked at have an max input voltage of +/- 32V. So it seems to me that if the 555 timer is not tuned correctly, charging the capacitor higher than 32V, you’ll blow up this 7812 chip immediately. So I thought that replacing the 7812 chip for a resistor and Zener diode might be safer, correct? See image 3 in the attachment.

Question 4: “Photo flash’ Capacitors
In the intermediate handbook, it is recommended to use “Photo flash” capacitors for fast discharge, but there is no ESR spec given. So I just selected some capacitors with a random ESR value, hoping that they can discharge fast enough: ESR of 14mOhm (3x Mallory 25000uF, 75V type CGS253U075X4C ). Any idea if this is fast enough? What would be the maximum ESR value for a Capacitor to be suitable for this circuit?

Many thanks in advance,
Best regards,
Rodolphe

#1
You only remove the diodes when using an isolated winding as in image 1. And yes I meant to say 1N4007.

#2a
The MOSFETS should be matched to evenly split the load between them and not burn out.

#2b
I think the device you referenced can be used to match MOSFETS as well as BJT transistors. I used a PEAK DCA75 semi-conductor tester to check mine. https://www.newark.com/peak/72-12840...tor/dp/56Y1287 As best I can recall they all pretty well matched when I received them. They were much better matched than any of the BJT transistors I received. Here is a link to the ones I think I used, can't say for sure without looking at them and I'm about 1,300 miles from home. https://www.newark.com/infineon/irfp260mpbf/transistor-polarity-n-channel/dp/27AC6801?scope=partnumberlookahead&ost=IRFP260MPBF .&searchref=searchlookahead&exaMfpn=true&ddkey=htt ps%3Aen-US%2FElement14_US%2Fw%2Fsearch

#2c
I didn't bother trying to calculate the discharge time or current flow. I just used 2 FETS because that's what the schematic showed. However, they bid burn out after awhile, so when I later made the comparator circuit I used 4 FETS.

#3
If you build the circuit like the schematic, the voltage won't get high enough to burn out the 7812 regulator. I think the 7812 gives more consistent voltage output and higher current flow ability than a zener diode and resistor would.

#4
I don't remember the suggested ESR value. Just look for the lowest value you can find for the voltage and capacity you choose. I suspect the Mallory caps you chose will work just fine.

Gary Hammond,

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

Hi All,

I just went ahead and made the timing circuit, see enclosed PDF for the schematic and parts list, with the following notes:

Note 1:
The shop where I bought my parts did not have the 0.8uF, 25V capacitor, so I exchanged it for a 1uF, 35V version.

Note 2:
Instead of using two 1MOhm potmeter, I used four 0.5Mohm potmeters to be able to tune a bit more accurately. In other words item nr 10 = 2x0.5MOhm in series and nr 11 = 2x0.5MOhm in series. Also I added 1kOhm resistors in front of them as Peter optionally mentions/suggests in the Handbook.

I tested my circuit by putting 12V on the input of the circuit and connected my Fluke 115 to the input of the Opto coupler, measuring frequency. See attachment for a photo.

What I noticed was
-When I turn the item nr 10 (potmeters) to the extreme minimum, so they have (almost) no resistance, the 2N4401 Transistor (item nr 2) gets hot and the Opto coupler (item nr 3) gets hot too. Especially the Opto coupler heats up fast to the point that I cannot put my finger on it any more (switched of the power supply when this happened.

My question are:
-Is it normal that the above mentioned components get so hot?
-if not, can anybody tell me where I made a mistake/used a wrong component?
Update 2020-02-04 -> should I try to increase the resistance of item nr 9? From 5kOhm to e.g. 10kOhm?

Many Thanks in advance,
Rodolphe

Nothing in the circuit should get hot. You have too much current flow thru these two components if they're getting hot.

Gary Hammond,

[pearldragon]

Hi Gary,

Thanks for all your answers, hope you and your wife had a good holiday!

I located the overheating cause of some of the components of the timing circuit: I used a strip board to solder my circuit onto. I forgot to break the connection under the 330-Ohm resistor (Item nr 8), so that resistor was bypassed. After correcting this, the heat issue was gone.

#2B MOSFETS
That’s a neat device you got there! I just hooked the three MOSFETS I had bought up to that little matching device of the intermediate manual; looks like I can match them with that, so ordered a bunch more of the MOSFETS, hoping to get some matched. The MOSFETS you used are exactly the same ones as I have.

#3 Risk to damage the 7812 chip -> Zener diode?
Please correct me if I’m wrong but I would think the voltage in the in the circuit (capacitor) can get high enough (over 32V) to damage the 7812 chip for the following reason (see attachment for schematic with numbered items/components and screenshot of scope):
If the potmeter item nr11 is turned to minimum resistance and potmeter item nr 10 is turned to maximum resistance the discharge time is a done in a fraction of a second, I would recon that if the potmeters are positioned in this way, the capacitors charge up to the max (75V) at some point, damaging the 7812 chip as soon as they go over 32V.
(Only when the capacitors are able to discharge so fast that they discharge faster than those almost vertical lines you see in the graph, the 7812 cannot be damaged. But if that would be true, than there is no adjustability of setting the charge level
of the capacitors, since they will discharge faster than the minimum setting of the timing circuit).

Best regards,
Rodolphe
2020-02-08 attachment.pdf

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

Hi Gary,

Thanks for all your answers, hope you and your wife had a good holiday!

...............................................
#3 Risk to damage the 7812 chip -> Zener diode?
Please correct me if I’m wrong but I would think the voltage in the in the circuit (capacitor) can get high enough (over 32V) to damage the 7812 chip for the following reason (see attachment for schematic with numbered items/components and screenshot of scope):
If the potmeter item nr11 is turned to minimum resistance and potmeter item nr 10 is turned to maximum resistance, you can see in the graph that the discharge time is a done in a fraction of a second, I would recon that if the potmeters are positioned in this way, the capacitors charge up to the max (75V) at some point, damaging the 7812 chip as soon as they go over 32V.
(Only when the capacitors are able to discharge so fast that they discharge faster than those almost vertical lines you see in the graph, the 7812 cannot be damaged. But if that would be true, than there is no adjustability of setting the charge level of the capacitors, since they will discharge faster than the minimum setting of the timing circuit).
Next thing on the list is soldering the rest of the cap dump circuit together.

Best regards,
Rodolphe
2020-02-08 attachment.pdf

We're still on vacation 1300 miles from home in warm sunny Florida until March 1st. We spend two nights on the road traveling each way.

If the circuit discharges at least once per second the voltage on the caps shouldn't exceed the rating of the regulator. Here's a link to a photo of the voltage trace across the caps on the old cap dump I made from the book. It only had 2 FETS and they eventually failed. It dumped every 6/10 of a second with the voltage raising to 25.6 and dumping to 21.8. http://www.energyscienceforum.com/fi...?photoid=71990

And here is a link to a picture of the device. http://www.energyscienceforum.com/fi...?photoid=71989


Later I made a whole new cap dump using the comparator circuit shown in the first couple of pages of this thread. It still works!


Gary Hammond,

[pearldragon]

Hi Gary,

Thanks for your answers!

I finally bought that second battery, so I can have a battery on the input rather than the variable power supply. Hooked up an amp meter at the input which i could bypass with a switch and did some measurements. Will report back here later next week with my findings and also to reply to your answers.

Best regards,
Rodolpe

[pearldragon]

Hi Gary,

I hope you, your family and friend are still in good health with the virus thing going one.

1) The “capacitor jump” mystery
A while ago I intended to do some test/runs with my capacitor dump circuit (CDC), from page 47 of the Intermediate handbook. But noticed some strange phenomena which I would like to discuss with you to check whether they are normal or not (see attachment for visual explanation):

Everything was hooked up except for:
-the negative terminal of the secondary battery (so positive is connected already).
-the primary battery (so SG input and the timer circuit input are NOT powered)
Furthermore I had my scope connected to the terminals of the big (dump) capacitors.

Now when I connected the negative terminal to the secondary battery, it sparked and I saw on my scope that the capacitors jumped more or less to the secondary battery level (see attachment).
I quickly disconnected the negative terminal of the battery and hooked-up a amp-meter in one of the wires to the secondary battery to see if it was just a an incidental spike or if something was short-circuiting. When I connected the negative terminal again I say that the amp-meter spiked, but then came back to zero (at least it seemed zero, not sure if a very very small amperage was still flowing).

Is this normal? I did not expect the big capacitors to jump to the battery voltage when connecting. Not as long as nothing would be acting upon the mosfets, which would be the timing circuit, and that one was still disconnected. On the other hand, I could imagine that connecting the secondary battery re-arranged the grounding of the circuit and thereby very briefly putting a potential across the gates of the mosfets, opening them up just for a sec.

During that day I did do a very quick test run and the circuit did work: I saw the sawtooth profile on my scope.

Now yesterday I wanted to do some proper test runs, making some screenshots etc to show/discuss here, but noticed some strange stuff resulting in the end of blowing up the voltage regulator. After replacing the voltage regulator I will do some double checking on the circuit, but knowing if the above mentioned phenomena is normal or not, will help me. (it did happen again yesterday, when I hooked up the secondary battery, I made scope screenshot when it took place, see attachment).

Looking ahead a bit; I already got most of my parts ordered to build the comparator, but first would like the above mentioned circuit to work properly, before copying mistakes in there to the comparator circuit as well. I’m intending to build the circuit as depicted in post#106 http://www.energyscienceforum.com/fo...mp/page8?t=999

2.1) Comparator: Stabilizing resistor

I made RS's cap dump circuit with Nityesh Schnaderbeck's mods, minus the stabilization resistor for the opto, and added an led with limiting resistor in parallel with the opto so I can see it pulse.

(http://www.energyscienceforum.com/fo...nced-ssg-build post#6)
Could you explain please why you left it out? What the advantage/disadvantage of that resistor is?

2.2) Comparator: Capacitor, material

C2 will be a ceramic or Mylar in most cases, can be a electrolytic for larger values if needed to tune the on time. the C3 will always be a electrolytic

(http://www.energyscienceforum.com/fo...mp/page6?t=999 post#88 (& post#87))
Why does C2 needs to be ceramic/Mylar? Electrolytic is NOT possible here? Does this has to do that in the area where this capacitor are placed the voltage can reverse (AC, rather than just DC)?
Since I didn’t know how critical this was, I just bought a electrolytic and a ceramic version:
https://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/alumi...itors/4759009/
https://nl.rs-online.com/web/p/ceram...itors/7368883/

2.3) Comparator: Capacitor, voltage
How can I know/determine what the voltage for these C2 capacitors should be? (from the links above the ceramic one I bought is 300V, the electrolytic one is 50V).

2.3.1) Comparator: Capacitor, the big ones…

the capture cap should be 35 to 50V, and value sized to the input source. The other 2 caps should be 25V +

(http://www.energyscienceforum.com/fo...mp/page4?t=999 post#49)
The handbook stated 60000uF, 80V. I stayed as close as I could with 3x 25000uF, 75V. So I can also switch to 50000uF by disconnecting one. Voltage-wise I’m quite far off what is proposed in this post. Furthermore, how can I “value size to input source”. The “input source” is here the source to the caps -> being the SG?
2.3.2) Comparator: Capacitor, voltage continued
In the book “Free energy generation” that I’m currently reading, I understood that a sharp gradient/dump plays a role in generation of negative energy. Now I assume that getting this sharp dump line is partly determined by the ESR value of the capacitors, but also by the voltage difference between the capacitors and the battery. If this latter statement it true, why are the cap dumps done in the 20V area and not way higher? Like my caps can go to 75V, why not dump at say 65V?

2.4.1) Comparator: Arduino
Can an Arduino be used, and do away with 90% of the analog circuits?
2.4.2) Comparator: SSR
Could Solid State Relais be used instead of mosfets? Or do SSRs have a clear disadvantage compared to mosfets?

Many Thanks in advance,
Best regards,

Rodolphe
2020-04-02 attachment.pdf

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

That's quite a laundry list of questions!

1.........

Now when I connected the negative terminal to the secondary battery, it sparked and I saw on my scope that the capacitors jumped more or less to the secondary battery level

.Every cap dump I've made has done this and it always startles me! The current has to be going thru the FET in the reverse direction to do this. It's just the caps normalizing to the battery voltage very quickly.

And when I hooked my comparator up for the last video that I posted a couple of days ago, the battery posts were a little dirty. When I spun up the SSG the cable on the positive battery post started violently popping, cracking, and throwing out big balls of blue flame ever time the caps dumped about 2 or 3 times per second! Wiggled the clamp around on the post and it quit! Every time it discharges it's a huge current flow. If you hold a magnet next to either of the cables you can feel it jumping in your hand!

2..........

Could you explain please why you left it out? What the advantage/disadvantage of that resistor is?

R.S. said it wasn't necessary and Nityesh Schnaderbeck confirmed it. Mine works fine without it.

2.2 ...........1uf is a pretty small size for an electrolytic.

2.3 .............

How can I know/determine what the voltage for these C2 capacitors should be? (from the links above the ceramic one I bought is 300V, the electrolytic one is 50V).

Even if the capture caps rise up to 30 volts, c2 and c3 will never see much above 15 volts. So anywhere from a 35 to 50 volt rating would give a good margin of safety.

2.3.1 ..........A 75 volt rating should be sufficient, and the more powerful your SSG is the more capacitance you'll need. My SSG drives the 66,000 uF caps up quickly enough in common ground mode that it dumps two or three times per second. You can see it running here in post # 237. http://www.energyscienceforum.com/fo...sg-book/page16

2.3.2 ................The higher the voltage the longer it takes and the more energy it takes to fill them up. If it dumps less than once per second it is probably wasting energy and/or your caps are too large. John recommended to dump at about twice the battery voltage (24 to 28 volt range) and stop the dump around 16 to 20 volts for best results.

2.4.1 & 2.4.2........... Several people on this forum have used Arduino's and SSRs for cap dumping.

[pearldragon]

Hi Gary,

Yes… unfortunately it seems that I always have a very very long list of questions…. I’ll try to keep it short for a change (no guarantees for future posts though ).
I’m really grateful that you (and others who respond) take the time, over and over again, to write me answers that help me forward. Thank you very much Gary.

Any chance you know of any other SG builders here in the Netherlands? If there is a knowledgeable builder here, in a face to face chat I can probably cover things in 10 minutes that would take hours via the forum.

1). Ok, glad to hear that the voltage jump is normal and not a fault in my circuit.
2.1). Ok, if they serve no purpose, I’ll leave them out too.
2.2.) The C2 capacitor is 0.1uF. The link for the electrolytic one was for a 1uF, fault from my side. But on RS components I can find electrolytic ones which go as low as 0.1uF. Do I understand from your answer that for the function of the circuit it does not matter whether it is a ceramic or electrolytic one?

2.3.2. I read indeed that about twice the battery voltage was recommended in the handbook. But with the formula in the capacitor E =0.5C*V^2 you can keep the energy to fill the caps more or less the same by reducing the capacitance while increasing the voltage. Would this not result then in sharper dump gradients, yielding more negative energy? (choosing the capacitance/voltage in such a way that you would stay within the limit of dumping at least once per second as you mention?)
I’ll come back on this once I have my own circuit up and running with screenshots to discuss further.

I hope to replace my blown out 7812 voltage regulator this week and find out why it blew up so that I can post some results here.

Regards,
Rodolphe

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

Any chance you know of any other SG builders here in the Netherlands? If there is a knowledgeable builder here, in a face to face chat I can probably cover things in 10 minutes that would take hours via the forum.

Sorry. I know there have been some from Europe, but I don't remember any names except for hobbyrobotik from Germany. And JulesP is in England. There may be others that are actually in the Netherlands, but I don't know who it would be.

2.2 ......

Do I understand from your answer that for the function of the circuit it does not matter whether it is a ceramic or electrolytic one?

I think either one is ok here. I'd go with whichever one I had on hand, or if purchasing new, whichever one was least expensive.

2.3.2 ..........

Would this not result then in sharper dump gradients, yielding more negative energy? (choosing the capacitance/voltage in such a way that you would stay within the limit of dumping at least once per second as you mention?

Good question. Unfortunately, I don't know the answer. Maybe RS or someone else could answer this. Plus you can always experiment on your own to find the answer.

I hope to replace my blown out 7812 voltage regulator this week and find out why it blew up so that I can post some results here.

The voltage may have gone too high from either not having a battery connected to discharge into, or else maybe using too small of a capacitor that charged too fast.

Gary Hammond,

[pearldragon]

Maybe we should introduce am updated version of the saying "Lucky Luke can shoot faster than his shadow" -> "Gary H. can answer questions faster than I can write them down" .

I just have blown another voltage regulator, still have one left and high hopes to find the cause with this last one: three time's a charm!
I'll update here hopefully tomorrow

[pearldragon]

The proverb holds up: Three time’s a charm; with the 3rd V-regulator it ran today

In the attachment you can find some quick tests from today with different capacitances.
As I expected you can blow up the V-regulator by reducing the discharge time too much (at least in with my setup): in the fist two tests you see that if I turn the potmeter too far, reducing the discharge time too much, the voltage keeps on climbing and I had to turn the potmeter back real quickly not to exceed the 30V+ limit and blow my last V-regulator… (this was not the cause that my previous ones have blown up, that was due to other reasons).

Next on the list: the comparator and the Advanced Handbook.
Regards,
Rodolphe
2020-04-07 - attachment.pdf

[pearldragon]

Hi Gary,

In response to your post #71: Thanks for your answers.

2.2) Ok
2.3.2) Experimenting myself is certainly an option and would/will do that if I think it is worthwhile. The thing is that I prefer to ask first if it has already been tested before, instead of rediscovering “the wheel” . Furthermore there might be a logical reason why this is/is not preferred. Since my knowledge is still fairly limited, I ask first.
Staying on this topic; on the pages 43 to 49 of the book “Free energy generation – Bearden/Bedini” a couple of schematics are depicted with exactly that: capacitors with a very small capacitance and a high voltage rating…

Regards,
Rodolphe

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Rodolphe,

Any chance you know of any other SG builders here in the Netherlands? If there is a knowledgeable builder here, in a face to face chat I can probably cover things in 10 minutes that would take hours via the forum.

I forgot about Floris. He is in Amsterdam. Here's a link to his user profile. http://www.energyscienceforum.com/member/141-floris/about

Gary Hammond,