Trigger Circuit Excessive Output

[Forrest]

Hi All,
Thought I would write about something new to me but maybe old to you. The trigger circuit alternator. I have rewound all of the 9 lead coils @ 130' long and remounted them to the bike wheel. 16 transistors!

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps807e2a13.jpg

I also remounted the 2" X 3" magnets to the wheel 14 pieces in all. I know I am probably going to hear about this but I just have to see what the results are! Anyway so now I have 2 coils mounted so that they are timed for the same magnet passing. I left both coils wound with the trigger circuit and thought I would parallel them together. I got the prototype setup all ready to go and hooked up the charge chords to my 24 volt 720 AH bank.

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps17568428.jpg

I hooked up the input side to my big power supply and double checked everything to make sure none of the factory smoke would be released on startup. I flipped on the switch and gave the wheel a spin and started into the voltage slowly. At 6 volts the wheel took off and I hooked up the scope to see what resistance I needed to tune this thing into. At the time I was using a 2.5" dia 50 ohm var resistor to time it in. As I got the resistance set correctly I slowly added the voltage to the SG. I went up to 12volt and let the thing run for a few minutes and after some time noticed something smelled hot. You know that burning smell! I got out my temp gun and check everything on the coils and buss bars and could not find anything warm. I thought it might be the power supply but it was only @ 1 amp. 12v. so I just let it run and slowly added more voltage to it. I did notice that the var resistor windings were red so i found a large resistor and soldered it in.

I later went up to 24 volts and the smell did not go away. Then the wheel slowly ran down on rpm to a stop. I knew something had died!...hopefully not 16 trannies! So I started checking every line and then noticed it. The resistor had come unsoldered. So I resoldered it and fire it back up. @ 24 volts I actually watched the solder melt away from the resistor. OK so I thought the resistor was not big enough. I took 2 more and soldered all three together and @ 24 volts the solder melted away again.

This is when I thought about the alternating current and the rpm of the wheel. So I took a chance and unhooked one of the coils trigger and fired it up again…. Now running on one trigger coil.. Low and behold the resistors ran much cooler. So I let the machine run @ 24volts all night and noticed a voltage rise in the battery bank from 24.8 to 25.2. The next day I noticed the machine had stopped and the resisitor burned into 2 pieces.

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps2e863e59.jpg
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I then ordered a very large 25 ohm var resistor which is now running the sg.

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps444afdf5.jpg

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps9705c1d7.jpg

I am now operating @ 30 volts input 2.5 amp with wheel speed of 397 rpm and charging the big bank fairly well considering how massive it is using a 21 ohm resistance on the trigger circuit all 16. Everything is ice cold except for that big var resistor and that part does not mean anything. The heat is excess power that we need to control with the resistor to keep the transistors from burning up.

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps11c42aa4.jpg


I would have never guessed that one trigger could provide this much power and could handle this many circuits.....not only that but many more also. I have not studied how much available power is there on the unused trigger circuit on the other coil but the AC voltage output is 20.3~ volts.

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...psc1d02b21.jpg

Probably enough to light a light bulb and possibly enough to rectify and run the machine? Is this what Tom Watson stumbled onto? I am only @ 347 rpm and he was @ somthing like 800 rpm. I am sure there is a very large output at this speed.

Thinking back to the duplicate SG I built not long ago to resemble the one from JB's lab.....the big fan. Just so you all know the fan has a huge purpose!

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...essgflash2.jpg

To govern the wheel speed and keep the trigger resistor cool. I knew for sure JB put it there for a reason and now I really know why!

John knew about this problem long ago and never said anything about it. He outgrew this trigger power problem by switching over to the superpole magnet arrangement. On this setup there is no south pole or very little between the magnets like there is on the regular SG. This brings down alternating current problem and only provides a pulse when needed to fire the transistors. So at the end of the day the regular SG has to be speed limited where the superpole sg does not.

I am fairly sure JB knows just exactly what Tom Watson was up to and why he disappeared for several years. I am also willng to bet he also knows how to make this thing run overunity……and now I am on this path to find out if it is possible. Some of us know about the big DC motors that can run away and self-destruct when the power is shut off. This is overunity working at it’s best but that is water over the dam and no one remembers. These energizers work without the back EMF wrestling match going on and there should be no reason it cannot self run.

Anyway good stuff to think about.

Merry Christmas everyone!

Bud

[John_Koorn]

Hey Bud,

Nice report. It sounds like to me you are just pushing way too much current there which is why your master base resistor is getting hot. One of the reasons is because you paralleled the trigger wires from both coils. You don't need individual trigger wires, but as a test try putting them in series instead.

You should also find that if you increase the resistance on the master base resistor the rpm will increase more.

Believe me, the path to OU is not by creating heat. You want everything to run cool and even the master base resistor should not get that warm. Every time you increase the primary draw you will need to retune the machine.

John K.

[min2oly]

Bud,
I'm interested in your findings with this. What John says is true.
my first thought is that if your resistors/pot is getting hot, then you have too many windings(volts/amps) on the trigger coil, we only need enough to bias the bases of all the transistors.
My goal with the larger builds has always been to aim for as little trigger winding as I can get away with and still have a good tuning range. My biggest quandry has been how thick/amps the winding should be for the multi-coil builds... I guess it's all in the math, how many resistors/watts needed in total to bias the bases... it's easier for me to just pull off a few feet at a time and test :-)
Keep us posted - thanks
Patrick

[Forrest]

Hi John,min2oly,

Everything about this setup is icecold except for that resistor. All 16 transistors are triggered by that one trigger winding leaving the other one free. I did try to increase the resistance this morning and things cooled a little but I ran out of control on the var resistor @ 25 ohm. Will try something larger. I also have the ability to rewind the coil and change the trigger as the trigger is not litzed into the other 8 power windings....it is separate but follows the braid very tighly when wound. I could always wind a smaller trigger wire size or shorten it or add taps to the trigger to see what the best setup. Rewinding for me has become second nature and the time it takes is nill. Lots to consider and think about.

All in all I have made several serious mistakes over this past year but now I really understand the heart of what makes this thing tick. It is like anything else I have conquered in my life and that is you have to make all those mistkes first to really really learn it. You cannot get it by reading the book! Period! You have to live it! The best info I have received yet is the one small piece that John talks about and that is the as the magnet approaches the coil the current passes one way and stops as the magnet get centered on the coil......then the current travels the opposite way when the magnet leaves the coil within the trigger circuit. For me this is when the light bulb lit in my mind. It all makes perfect sence now. I can now move on.

Bud

[John_Koorn]

Hey Bud,

what size trigger wire are you using and can you measure the resistance of one of the windings? How many ohms are your individual base resistors? Can you post some scope shots?

To give you an idea, my 10 coiler is all 8 windings of 130' of #18. Each winding measures 1.0 ohms, so I have two windings in series for the trigger on the master coil. My base resistors are all 100 ohms and the master base resistor is a 300 ohm 100 watt wire wound rheostat with a 12 volt car taillight in parallel. The rheostat is set at about 150 ohms and is not the slightest bit hot. The tail light is about half brilliance and gets a little warm as you'd expect. I am running at 12 volts primary and charge batteries and see no need to run at higher voltages.

John K.

[Forrest]

Hi John,

The trigger wire is #19 - 130' long and the one winding #18 - 130' measures 1 ohm. I do not have any base resistors. Scope shot is as follows:

http://i1243.photobucket.com/albums/...ps551530d7.jpg

Both of these coils have 8 windings #18 @ 1 ohm each + trigger. My light is in series with the rheostat. Might need to be parallel? I have changed the rheostat to 25 ohms and the temp is much lower. 98 degree. This is that screen shot @ 25 ohms. All transistors fire as this screen shot shows....I checked each one and they are all identical. If I add any more resistance the transistors fire more times per magnet pass. I do not know where that resistance is so I order a much larger rheostat to put in here later.

In comparison my duplicate of Johns shop SG where the coils are 7leads plus trigger I find the resistances of the base resistors and base resistors very much like you stated above. For some unknown reason the extra lead makes the control resisitance of the trannies much lower. Do you have any idea why?

I have been charging on this 24v bank for 7 days now. Started @24.8 volts and now @ 27.2.....this would be the long section of the charge cycle. So we will wait and see. This is why I chose 24-30 volts to see if I could actually charge the bank as a unit 700+ AH in a shorter time span.

Looking to build a much larger unit but wanted to know the exact details of coil design and why before jumping into that big of a machine. Don't want to make it wrong. This is why all the prototyping first.

Bud

[John_Koorn]

Hi Bud,

The lack of base resistors makes sense as to why your rheostat is getting warm. If it was my setup I would put 100 ohm base resistors on each of the trannys, series up two of the windings for the trigger (or re-wind the coil with a #23 trigger winding) and place the bulb in parallel with the rheostat.

You should be able to tune the machine to one pulse per magnet pass and then use the rheostat to fine tune it to the fastest RPM. You may need a higher ohms rheostat if you run out of tuning room. Once you have it tuned that way, adjust the coil/magnet gap to see if you can get faster RPM - after doing that fine tune the rheostat again. Put aside 3-4 hours for the whole process.

I would also run the machine for a few cycles with 12v on the front and back until you're comfortable of where the machine wants to operate. As you are using 6v batteries make sure you use the shortest and thickest cables you can get to join the batteries together - I use 3/4" copper pipes for mine. Don't start paralleling more batteries until you get the machine running right and are getting good results - remember the machine will attempt to lower the impedance of the highest impedance cell so if you have one cell in the entire bank with a high impedance all of the energy will go into that cell.

BTW, I forgot to mention my 10 coiler is using a super pole rotor. But the process is the same for tuning.

John K.

[Forrest]

Hi John,

Thanks for the reply. After I thought about it for around 2 hours this morning in bed it finally sank in. You want to provide a high enough voltage spike from the two series trigger coils to be able to put the 100 ohm base resistors on the trannies and the have room for a common base resistor. This part is tough for me as I do not understand the engineering aspect of electronics but it does make sence. Will definately give it a try when I have a free moment. I have all the parts to make this happen but like anything else just making the time.

Bud

[min2oly]

Hi Bud,

The lack of base resistors makes sense as to why your rheostat is getting warm. If it was my setup I would put 100 ohm base resistors on each of the trannys, series up two of the windings for the trigger (or re-wind the coil with a #23 trigger winding) and place the bulb in parallel with the rheostat.

You should be able to tune the machine to one pulse per magnet pass and then use the rheostat to fine tune it to the fastest RPM. You may need a higher ohms rheostat if you run out of tuning room. Once you have it tuned that way, adjust the coil/magnet gap to see if you can get faster RPM - after doing that fine tune the rheostat again. Put aside 3-4 hours for the whole process.

I would also run the machine for a few cycles with 12v on the front and back until you're comfortable of where the machine wants to operate. As you are using 6v batteries make sure you use the shortest and thickest cables you can get to join the batteries together - I use 3/4" copper pipes for mine. Don't start paralleling more batteries until you get the machine running right and are getting good results - remember the machine will attempt to lower the impedance of the highest impedance cell so if you have one cell in the entire bank with a high impedance all of the energy will go into that cell.

BTW, I forgot to mention my 10 coiler is using a super pole rotor. But the process is the same for tuning.

John K.

I don't know why I always assume people know more or less what they are doing... :-)

Bud, listen to John. there are a couple more reasons you want those base resistors in there. Also, make sure you measure them (ohms), see that they all match.
Did you match your transistors?
Keep up the hard work Bud, you'll get there.
Kind regards,
Patrick

[Forrest]

Hi Patrick,

I am definatly on it. Just gotta make the time.

Bud

[Prinsloo]

wire gauge size in the trigger winding

Hey Bud,

what size trigger wire are you using and can you measure the resistance of one of the windings? How many ohms are your individual base resistors? Can you post some scope shots?

To give you an idea, my 10 coiler is all 8 windings of 130' of #18. Each winding measures 1.0 ohms, so I have two windings in series for the trigger on the master coil. My base resistors are all 100 ohms and the master base resistor is a 300 ohm 100 watt wire wound rheostat with a 12 volt car taillight in parallel. The rheostat is set at about 150 ohms and is not the slightest bit hot. The tail light is about half brilliance and gets a little warm as you'd expect. I am running at 12 volts primary and charge batteries and see no need to run at higher voltages.

John K.

Hi John K

Can you please give us the wire gauge size in the trigger winding on your 10 coiler mentioned above ?

If I understand you correctly you have 1 trigger wire that is doubled the length of the power winding, it is wound on first and then the power wires over the trigger wire ?

Thanks

Theunis

[John_Koorn]

Hi John K

Can you please give us the wire gauge size in the trigger winding on your 10 coiler mentioned above ?

If I understand you correctly you have 1 trigger wire that is doubled the length of the power winding, it is wound on first and then the power wires over the trigger wire ?

Thanks

Theunis

Hi Theunis,

My trigger winding is #18 as well, wound on with the power windings.

John K.

[Prinsloo]

Hi JohnK

Once again thank you for your time

Please explain "so I have two windings in series for the trigger on the master coil." - your quote.

http://www.energyscienceforum.com/be....html#post4730

Please explain in laymen terms, or lets say " Bedini for Dummy's "

did you litz the trigger with the other wires?

if so how did you get two wires in series?

if it is two wires are they double the length (series) of the other wires?

How?

Thanks

Theunis

[John_Koorn]

Hi JohnK

Once again thank you for your time

Please explain "so I have two windings in series for the trigger on the master coil." - your quote.

http://www.energyscienceforum.com/be....html#post4730

Please explain in laymen terms, or lets say " Bedini for Dummy's "

did you litz the trigger with the other wires?

if so how did you get two wires in series?

if it is two wires are they double the length (series) of the other wires?

How?

Thanks

Theunis

Hi Theunis,

The coil was made with 8 strands of #18 wire, all wound together and twisted at 3 twists/inch.
2 of the strands were separated from the other 6. The end of one of the two strands was connected to the start of the other of the two strands. This effectively made one single strand which is twice the length of the other 6 strands.

Hope this makes sense...

John K.

[Prinsloo]

Thanks JohnK

I am with you now, by doing this you did get a higher voltage on the trigger to drive all the transistors !

thanks

Theunis