#18awg vs #20awg vs #23awg vs #26awg

[Nofear]

Hi All,

JB's Handbook calls for 130ft of #20awg power wire and #23awg trigger. On the old Bedini monopole3 group the coil is 850 turns #23 power and #26 trigger.Yet I see a lot of people using 150ft #23awg. And even more people building machines with 130ft to 200ft#18awg.
I know that each machine can be built for a different purpose and they are all tuned with the right base resistances, matching transistors and diodes...etc

But all these different coils dimensions beg the question: What are the design trends?

#18awg is twice as thick as #23awg and has more then 3 times the cross section: Which means for the same length wire #18awg resistance is about 3.15 smaller then #23awg. But will coil with roughly half the numbers of turn on a spool. What criteria is most important when choosing a coil or wire size? Or does it all come down to the same thing at the end if the circuit is properly tuned.

Any thoughts?

NoFear

[Aaron Murakami]

Hi All,

JB's Handbook calls for 130ft of #20awg power wire and #23awg trigger. On the old Bedini monopole3 group the coil is 850 turns #23 power and #26 trigger.Yet I see a lot of people using 150ft #23awg. And even more people building machines with 130ft to 200ft#18awg.
I know that each machine can be built for a different purpose and they are all tuned with the right base resistances, matching transistors and diodes...etc

But all these different coils dimensions beg the question: What are the design trends?

#18awg is twice as thick as #23awg and has more then 3 times the cross section: Which means for the same length wire #18awg resistance is about 3.15 smaller then #23awg. But will coil with roughly half the numbers of turn on a spool. What criteria is most important when choosing a coil or wire size? Or does it all come down to the same thing at the end if the circuit is properly tuned.

Any thoughts?

NoFear

I'd just stick with this: 130ft of #20awg power wire and #23awg trigger and make it 7 power windings and 1 trigger - all twisted then wrapped and run it in attraction mode.

[Nofear]

Thanks Aaron,

I am guessing that's for the bicycle wheel SSG energizer.

The solid state is a whole different ball of wax. And since there are no magnets, gap to adjust or shaft rpm to worry about, SS builders are under the impression that there is more freedom/flexibility. Still some of the numbers like "130ft length" got carried over from the SSG design so I have yet to read some rational behind the relationship between wire size and wire length.

John Bedini in his master class DVD#23,#24 clearly ask people to fill a spool entirely, not paying attention to wire length or number of turns because the coil will be "tuned" as is....But for beginners he insist to keep #20 wire at 130ft, not one inch more. I understand that the kit need to be very very specific with minimum deviation so people can exchange observations and data since everyone is working from similar machine. And once people get more experienced they should be free to experiment.

Yet I see people still being very rigid about keeping their coils to 130ft...I don't honestly know why that is. I've spend countless hours sifting through the posts to get a handle on the coil "design space". The information is very anecdotal and akin to putting a puzzle with missing pieces together.
The big knobs are:
- Core metal or air.
-geometric dimensions D,d and H
-wire material
-wire gauge.
-wire length
-numbers of turns....although that is not exactly an independent variable as it relates to what's above.

I am hoping that there are people out there with similar questions that can come forward. even with fragmented answers; if we could put all the pieces together we could hopefully start seeing the big picture.

Peace.

NOFear

[John_Koorn]

What we are suggesting is what is known to work and produce very good results. People can experiment with whatever they like.

Nofear, you nailed it with "And once people get more experienced they should be free to experiment."

John K.

[Aaron Murakami]

Still some of the numbers like "130ft length" got carried over from the SSG design so I have yet to read some rational behind the relationship between wire size and wire length.

Anyone can build whatever they want but one of the purposes of the SG Beginner's handbook is to help standardize a build so as many people as possible can be on the same page. If nothing else, its worth sticking to that because it is also easier to support someone that has the same build.

I can tell you this just by looking at the coil using this particular bobbin... If you use the specified wire sizes and make them 130 feet - 7 power at 20 awg and 1 trigger at 23 awg - twist and wind on the bobbin, it will fill the bobbin up with about 1/4" margin before the edge of the ends of the bobbin. So for all practical purposes, making the coil to spec with this bobbin, you will have the perfect amount of winds to perfectly fill the bobbin with a little safety margin so you don't have to have windings slip over the ends. This size wire at this length gives the right resistance that you want per wire..taking all that into account, you'll get the perfect coil with this bobbin.

[Volty]

Anyone can build whatever they want...

I can tell you this just by looking at the coil using this particular bobbin... If you use the specified wire sizes and make them 130 feet - 7 power at 20 awg and 1 trigger at 23 awg - twist and wind on the bobbin, it will fill the bobbin up with about 1/4" margin before the edge of the ends of the bobbin. So for all practical purposes, making the coil to spec with this bobbin, you will have the perfect amount of winds to perfectly fill the bobbin with a little safety margin so you don't have to have windings slip over the ends. This size wire at this length gives the right resistance that you want per wire..taking all that into account, you'll get the perfect coil with this bobbin.

Hi Aaron,

Any issues with bobbins/spools like these, for a 4" diameter scooter wheel?
(I just dont want the Larger but quieter bike wheel. Save me from time wasting mistakes please, everyone)
Flange Outer Diameter: 3.5 inches
Height: 3.25 inches
Traverse: 3.0 inches
Center Hole Diameter: 0.75 inches
I can trim off the flange just wider than the windings. and i'm going to use green garden wire for the core, unless welding rods make so much difference, in which case I can get those later. Only one 2n3055 for me for now. # of twists per inch, and twist direction may I ask. I don't have the book yet. On very tight budget with grown kids draining me dry. I see the inspiring toyota mechanic on youtube recently with his how to build a Bedini SG with his sloppy coils still working well, without any advice about CCW Vs. CW coil winding, or twisting the wires.

In some non-Bedini devices, wind direction matters greatly. So I ask your expertise, bkm of everybody here. The copper is so pricey, I must ask.

Ward

[Volty]

What we are suggesting is what is known to work and produce very good results. People can experiment with whatever they like.

Nofear, you nailed it with "And once people get more experienced they should be free to experiment."

John K.

Hi John,

Aaron it seems not around, and I asked about Bobbin sizes. Tom pointed me to some resources, and I have new questions, maybe you can answer?

UPDATE - OK I see recommended pre-wound 8 20awg+1 23awg coils at Battery Chargers, Bedini SG Kits, PCBs, Books & Videos, but how close may I effectively place these Bobbin Coils, what Minimum Diameter wheel shall I choose for Bobbins/Coils such as these, which is also "Quiet", for a Radiant Monopole Motor.

If it is to evolve into a Multi-Pole Motor, as if there were a wheel famine, how close can these Pre-Wound Coils be places? (C8 Magnet spacing and Wheel Diameter i mean)

Tom just advised "No Neo's in the Monopole Magnets in Bedini Monopole 3 - Beginners thread. The advised Core-to-Magnet-Spacing is ~1/4", with the Ferrite C8 54mm x 9.5mm x 25.4mm on a bike wheel, advised in that thread.

It seems Neo's might just be spaced farther apart with greater magnet to Bobbin Coil Gap than ~1/4". Do I really need to buy the book if i refrain from bike wheels? Like I saw on theTube, a greasy toyota guy's sloppy coil worked with 4 magnet Razor Wheel from Big-5, with Neo's sunk into the Urethane, right on the Aluminum Wheel. I could screw mine down with the counter-sunk holes that way. He used two coils on opposite sides of his scooter wheel, which might hinder discovery of 'some' of the 4 modes of operation of the Radiant "Mono"Pole Motor, especially if they are not positioned in perfect co-operation. And, mechanics should know bearings like these prefer a horizontal axis of rotation, hence the noisey small wheel. At work I see wafers spin at 7000 rpm's with whisper quiet operation, besides the brishless ac spindle motor coils firing that is. I strive for that quietness, without a bike wheel, and still do some serious charging-conditioning-charging-conditioning of rejected auto batteries.

I can imagine helpers reading this now thinking, "Oh God, this person requires extra help per his desires to deviate from what is known to work...", maybe ;-)

* * * Back to AWG related questions; why are the SSG's and those pre-wound coils twisting the Active Wires around the Passive Wire?
Why are they twisting them? In which direction, how many twists per inch?

Thank you in advance.

-Ward

[Tom C]

ward... use ferrites.... JB has said it 1 million times at least, no neo's so just trust him on this. you will not get good rejuvenation of large batteries with a little tiny coil and a little tiny wheel. that will work for little tiny batteries.


Tom C

[Volty]

Thanks Tom,

I am working on the correct magnets.

I bought a 1x8 Coil Assembly already measured, thristed, and put onto the spool for me, with welding rods in the core, because I do not have enough 20 AWG to wind one that way. Radio Shack just does not understand that folks require 1 and 2 pound spools, and more than 1 transistor in stock.

Battery Chargers, Bedini SG Kits, PCBs, Books & Videos shows they offer pre-selected transistors, boards, and other items. I learned much about what others are doing just by looking at the more advanced products like the Comparator Boxes with sleek looking control and jacks.


If only I had bought the book at the start. I wasted twice this just on the wrong wire.

My advice to anyone trying to save the $27 it costs for the pdf; you are taking the Long Road. I only wish it were paper, so that 100 years from now it would still exist. Please offer a paper version link in the paper books section at the site.


Anyone reading and wondering why no one usually answers, it is because you are supposed to buy the book.
I once spent 6 hours searching the internet for a Fisher & Paykel Drawer-Style Dishwasher Manual. The OEM recently had switched from "Free" to "$89.95", so I looked everywhere for the versions that 'were posted' when it was free. Then I paid ApplianceNinja.com $5 to become an official Appliantologist", and gain lifetime access to everything their site had or will ever have. DEAL!

I pitty the poor fool who don't buy Peter Lindemann, DSc & Aaron Murakami's, BSNH official, authorized Bedini Complete Beginner's Handbook. (What is a BSNH?)

Ward

PS - You know what they say about Volty?

[Mike Swanson]

Hi, the second coil I tried for my SSG experiment was two strands 18 AWG 200 feet. Then upon common advice I shortened it to 130 feet +/-. For me, the reduction seemed to lessen the efficiency. My battery COP went from averaging 1.8 and system COP .7x with 200 foot coil to battery COP I think .8ish. not sure the system COP it was in the same ballpark. Sorry, I lost the data . Not sure the other pros and cons, just what seemed to happen with my SSG according to my tests. FYI if I build a 7 strand SG coil I will probably do 130 ft of 20 awg 23 trigger as in the handbook.