Bedini 7 Transistor 1 Coil In- and Output (like "The Complete Beginner's Handbook")

[romeo-kilo]

Hi guys,
last wekend I've finalized my SG following almost literally "The Complete Beginner's Handbook". I just used "matched" transistors, diodes, and resistors to avoid the re-soldering work in the next step (The complete intermediate Handbook). The machine runs smooth and well, and first thing I will try is the "healing" capability for old batteries. As a start I used my to be replaced (hopefully not) Motorcycle Battery (13Ah) which went down (after conventional charging) to 0.6 Ah at C20 and stopped at 12,0V.

After the first SG Cycle (charging 14.6h up to 15V) I received already 1.9 Ah with the same unloading setup.
This gives me the calculation of 130mA charge per hour. Does anyone have any similar or different results?

My setup is running with 165 rpm, I have 22 magnets on a Bicycle wheel for 26". The analogue Amp-Meter in the Run circle tells me ~350mA from a 13.8V Battery (which is being charged from mains during the run-time - otherwise it won't be able to run 15h).

In this forum I just see results from people that are using less than 7 transistors. Could please someone who is using a similar machine than mine share his / her data?

thank you very much!
romeo-kilo

PS: I have already ordered 3x brand new 12V 3Ah Batteries for the other tests.

[Brodie Gwilliam]

it will take multiple charges to heal batteries, and not all can be fixed...

i believe john b said not to use anysmaller than a 13ah battery on that big of a system if you want good results.....also you will need to use new batteries if you want to start doing comparisons, remember each charge the battery should get better results, even with new batteries

also most smaller batteries are gel cells, and i dont believe you will have as good as luck with gel cells... if you want good COP, you wont get it with old batteries...but it is good at fixing them but it can take 10-20 charges for some batteries... the only reason you should be calculating the bad battery is to see how much better its getting

[Tom C]

RK,

you are dealing with old battery syndrome, like brodie has already pointed out. so do the runs, dont worry about cop at this point you are restoring batteries. as far as the new 3 AH batteries you are getting, if you are planning on running your sg from one of them as the primary your current draw will Be to hi. do not run below C20 for your current draw, you will quickly destroy the battery you ar eusing to operate your machine.

Batteries do not like being charged and discharged at the same time, so if you dont mind your primary battery being destroyed you can keep running it that way, but I would reccomend using a larger battey for the primary if you are going to just be doing restoration.

Tom C

[romeo-kilo]

Tom & Brodie,
at the moment I don't care about COP of my SG, I just want to see the healing effect on old batteries (as I can't do anything else with the SG right now).
As soon as the 3 AH's will be there, I start testing COP using the Spreadsheet. Initially I wanted to use one of them as input, but after your warning I will take a bigger one for that.

Yesterday I changed my setup a bit, because I know that charging and discharging at the same time isn't ideal. I used a 1F capacitor which is fed by a little (max 500mA) power supply as input for my SG. And surprise to me: The current from the power supply to the cap is almost the same as my analogue meter shows - ~ 350 mA.

My initial question wasn't answered, yet: What "current" (as I can't meter it, I have to calculate it after discharging my output battery) should I expect as output from my 7 Transistor machine? I just want to know if I've built everything correctly.

The second SG run with my old battery gave out 2.3Ah in a shorter time with an average calculation of 156mA/h. Last evening I started the 3rd run, and the 15.2V were reached much faster (after 13.5h) then yesterday (~18h). It is discharging right now, so I don't know what the actual Ah of the battery is.

Regards
Ralf K

[BobZilla]

Romeo,
If I am understanding your question correctly you could expect the machine to draw up to an 1A and it would still be considered reasonable. If you are running on 350ma than that is pretty darn good.

It sounds like you are using a fixed resistor so perhaps someone who has a duplication like yours can chime in. Many of us use pots on the trigger to adjust for different tuning options, that is more of the "old way" and seems like it is not recommended anymore. For example though I have a small machine that is not built to specifications (small 8 inch wheel) that can be tuned to run well on 250ma, 600ma, and about 1A.

I know you are looking for an exact number but these machines all run a little different so the best thing is just to keep running it and observe the behavior. You will start to develope a feel for it with a little experience and you will know when it is running right.

The best thing for you to do is get away from the power supply as soon as you can and use batteries on the front and the back. It will run differently.

[romeo-kilo]

Bob,
350mA is the 2nd sweet spot when I start with highest resistance. There are others up to 1.3Amps (didn't try higher). I haven't calculated the RPM's vs. current ratio for finding the ULTIMATE sweet spot. I am using matched 100 Ohms resistors in front of each Transistor, and a 4W high power pot, that was initially set to 370 Ohms.
As I'm new to these circuits - what is wrong with using a Mains powered PowerCap at the input plugs.
This way I can exactly measure input watts vs. discharge watts, as it keeps static compared to a battery, which Voltage sinks and with it the current and the RPM's. And I don't wreck the Input battery using a standard charger...

I am very interested, how others (that were following more or less literally the beginner's book) are running their 7+1 wire machines: what input current, what RPM, and what output. This hopefully gives me some kind of proof, that I built my SG without big faults.

Ralf K

[Tom C]

Ralf,

there is no "set" current draw, it depends upon a lot of variables, wheel size, diameter, number of magnets, condition of batteries, dont worry about output current, and input current between 1 and 2 amps is fine to begin with. you are getting good charging you are in the ballpark. then it is a mattery of adjusting coil gap, etc....

Tom

[romeo-kilo]

Hi Guys,
I've received my new Batteries, cycled them several times, and connected them to my machine.
Before that, I tuned my machine finding several sweet spots. I didn't go higher in amps, as with around 300 rpm I didn't trust my construction any more, if I should go that way, I need to make the arms for the wheel stronger and probably have to balance the wheel a little bit better. With 230 rpm's everything seems to be much smoother.

For checking the speed, I use a bicycle Speed meter with magnetic coupling, and calculated with a formula km/h into rpm.
In the input line is an analogue Amp meter, in front of the Output Battery is another analogue amp meter.

Main exercise was finding the spot with the highest rpm per mA. As I noted earlier, I didn't trust my construction running faster than 300 rpm, and the other limit is my output meter - it can handle a max of 500 mA.
To have at least one constant in the whole thing, I use a mains power converter to 12V with a 1F capacitor as input.


I have seen rises and falls of the output amps more or less independant from these sweet spots. Means a little more input gives a lot more output. Is this something important?

The question now: Which one of these spots should I try for SG cycling my batteries for getting the best Input vs battery output results? As an example: Using 350mA Input, 180mA output shown with the analogue Amp meter, 170rpm I was able to extract from the battery between 225mA and 172mA, the tendency is sinking. These values are identical using 1 charging battery alone or 2 in parallel.


I'm confused...

Here are some oscilloscope pics with 287 rpm and with 230 rpm. I measured at the input of the diodes going into the charge battery against input ground.

Waiting for comments and hints
Ralf K

[romeo-kilo]

An update after more than one month of intensive testing:
after matching the components, fine tuning my machine (Wheel freespin time, space distance) and finding the lowest sweet spot that produces the "h" waves on my oscilloscope

I have the following values:
Input Current: 440-450mA (using a 500mA Power Supply feeding a 1F Cap, Voltage is 12,88V when the machine is running)
RPM: 210
Output Current: 230mA (measured using an analogue Amp meter with max 500mA)
Best output after discharge (calculated output Ah / charge time) is 212mA

I used different Batteries:
a nearly dead wet 14Ah motorcycle battery (after cycling it with the wheel until no more grow in Ah output after charging to 15.4V)
one brand new AGM 2.7Ah (charged with a "normal" charger before using it on the Bedini wheel)
two and three of these batteries in parallel

My conclusions:
Charging to 15.4V does not warm up the batteries, and there is no bubbling in the acid.
After more than 50 cycles, the best CoP I got was 0.6
It is unimportant, what configuration of output batteries I use (see Batteries).
Using other sweet spots with higher amp draw keeps the CoP identical.
When I stop the machine at 13,9V or higher at the output battery, wait a couple of hours, and start the wheel again, the voltage will climb up in 1 minute to 15.4V (it would go higher, but I stop here).
There is a output Ah difference if I charge it completely up to 15.4V or using the method described before.

Waiting for comments and hints
Ralf K

[Tom C]

Ralph,

your input draw is too low for the larger batteries. 450 milliamps is barely working. you should be at whatever 470 ohm resistors and a 12 ohm final and 21 magnets produce for your system, you also need to run off machine off another battery.

potential potential potenetial........ if you are not seeing gains in your system after a few runs, you need to change something.

Tom C

[romeo-kilo]

Tom,
like you said before (when there is no gains after a few runs, change something), I started with one change. Now I'm using a 12V 43 Ah Car battery as input for my circuit. As I have no charger that counts the Ah's going into the battery - I used a regulated Power Supply to keep the battery at a constant Voltage level. The current and Voltage was checked every hour, and I got a Cop > 1. You said before that charging and using the battery at the same time will destroy it - so I have done this just once as a test.

When I use a "normal" charger, I can measure the amps which will get smaller and smaller until the charger stops charging at 14.4 V. I'm not a math genius that can create out of that figures the Joules being moved into that battery.

Now my question: How do you measure the drain of the input battery after charging the output battery?

Ralf

[Tom C]

Ralf,

have a few ways, a CBA IV can monitor charging as well as discharging, so that works. I also have a couple of watts up meters. you can also just do a load calculation, by full charging it on a regular charger and discharge to a fixed voltage with a known wattage load. this will give you the batteries capacity in amp hours, you can convert to voltage then and that will tell you apporximately how much juice your SG is using. this draw changes a bit as the primary discharges and the secondary charges, but not much.

same batteries front to back, in the same condition also helps. get both batteries up to snuff then you can see the gains in the charge battery as you cycle them and you can aslo see the degradation of the primary as it is run on a standard charger.


http://www.westmountainradio.com/cba.php

http://www.all-battery.com/wattsuprc...FUSSfgodXiEAOA

Tom C

[romeo-kilo]

Tom,
I would love turning batteries front to back, but this is without a working cap pulser a no go (what I've read so far). If someone tested it and it works - that would be perfect!
My Cap Pulser (from the intermediate handbook) is not working, yet: When putting a 12V car lamp to the output (input is a 12V battery), it blinks in the rhythm as I adjusted it, but putting the Cap Bank as output - nothing happens, they will not be charged. I didn't have the time for fixing this.

The CBA IV looks really great, but my wife stopped me buying new equipment all the time. I've already got a scope, analogue amp meters, multimeters (one with USB Port for long time measurements and graphical output), new batteries, capacitors, etc.
Watts Up also looks perfect, I have to check if they are available in Germany.

I have detected that my high end RC charger (from my RC airplanes) is able to load SLA and FLA cells as well. Unfortunately it takes a very long time until it finishes. It loads with high amp up to 14.2V, and then reduces the load current to keep the voltage constant at that level. When the current is less than 100mA, it will stop. So a load process takes on my 43Ah Car battery 15 hours, specially the last 2-3 Ah's take most of the time. At least it tells me the Ah's put into the battery.

Next thing I have to test out - how much do I have to recharge, when I just keep this battery without charger for 24 hours and put it to the charger again. So all this needs so much time! frustrating!


Ralf

[Tom C]

the easiest way to reduce testing time is with smaller battteries.... hobby king has a version of the watt meter also,

Tom C

[romeo-kilo]

Tom,
thanks for the hints, specially the one to change something when I'm not seeing any gains.

I have switched over to an input battery, but this is complicated to measure. My measurement process right now is as follows:
Charge input battery full with my High-end RC charger. It will give me the amp hours charged into the battery.
When done, I charge the output battery with the SG.
After reaching 15.4V on the output, I wait for 1 hour, discharge the output battery with a C20 load (whilst the discharger calculates the amp hours)
It took me weeks to measure the self discharge rate, I finally organized a brand new FLA battery without any self discharge after 24h.

Even with that setup my CoP did not go up significantly - compared to my wall plug and the 1F Cap on the input side.

So I went through the forum and read. Yesterday I detected John Koorns video ( http://www.energyscienceforum.com/sh...?t=196&page=22 ) about his pimped SG and saw that his curves on the scope were different than mine. I have the "h" form with a spike in front. On the video I saw this as well (2'21"), but when the wheel was on a higher speed, it changed into the real "h" form (9'38"), without any spikes in front.

Last night I changed the resistor until my scope displayed the real "h" form. The SG is now using 850mA, 297 rpm, and the output is more than 500mA. Both amp figures are just from meters so tonight I'm doing the correct measurement (from end to end) and hope for a better result.

Thank you so much for the inspiration. After all my time spent and no gains (in January) I wanted to put the wheel out of my sight into a storage room. Now it is still in my computer room.
Ralf