Why not shown how to charge one battery with the other at the offical Bedini forum?

[Faraday88]

Tom Said it! This is an excellent examples to the proof that Science does not stick around with one 'Langauge' of its Interpreation,and so does it reveal it self in a vivid of people trying to understand its beauty.
Rgds,
Faraday88.

[forelle]

You are right,i should take a break.
Thanks

[Tom C]

took me even longer..... half the battle was learning a bit of electronics then batteries, then tesla... if you dont understand tesla you wont ever get this stuff! leedskalnin http://www.code144.com/ and http://www.leedskalnin.com/Leedskaln...ionHolder.html will help a lot too.

tom C

[John_Koorn]

Kamen,

That is a good list... you can add
all of those modes with a branch modification splitting the output to more than one cap dump... branch mode in gen mode is also very interesting.

Tom C

Then once you've built all of those you can convert them to solid state.

John K.

[John_Koorn]

Hi
you are right,basicaly im frustrated(i would say ofcourse because i am rebuilding a maschine and not inventing) that i am after 11/2 year and 3 different wheels and reading both SG books and the DVD33 and all whats written about this maschine i didnt have the slightest improvement in the COP.When i begann i started with a 6 coil maschine,i build it hooked it up and it was giving me a COP of 0.5 right away,that was 2 Years ago.Then i build a SG because i didnt came above 0.5.
Till now nothing has changed.
I have all like its suggested exept the coil is 7xAWG19 and 1xAWG 22.Till now I have run it most time with a powersupply because i didnt want to charge the battery with a standard charger so i ordered 2A12.
My suggestion to all newcomers is to build it exactly like it should be.If you reached 1-1 you can make modifications,not before.

Hi forelle, on a slightly different topic. I watched an interview with David Gilmour on Youtube today. I'm a big fan of his, he unfortunately, has never heard of me. He said during the interview that when he gets frustrated or sick of what he's doing, he takes a break to "recharge the batteries". He finds that when he does this and becomes relaxed he becomes inspired again.
The point being is that occasionally you need to take a break and come back with a fresh mind and fresh ideas. So take a break and do something you enjoy. I like to listen and play music or spend some time with the family.
It took me over 2 years of tinkering every day to build a machine that would charge the secondary battery before the primary ran down. I got frustrated too, it's part of learning but it's even more rewarding when you achieve your goal.
I've built about 17 different versions of the 4 battery Tesla Switch. I haven't built one yet that keeps the batteries charged while running a load. Have I failed? No. I've just learned what doesn't work and are getting closer to my goal. I've taken a break until I come up with more ideas. It's no big deal, I'll get there one day.
So take your time and take the time to learn the art, for it is an art - just like playing a musical instrument, it takes time to get really good at it.

John K.

[Tom C]

K,
yes your example is correct.
a branch circuit style SG allows you to take the collector diode output and instead of adding it to the charge rail bus, you run an individual "charge battery positive wire" to a single battery. you can take those batteries and give them a common negative to primary positive, or run the gen mode mods, or neg neg or any other way. the advantage of this is that batteries in parallel swap voltages to try and balance each other, so if you have one battery at 12.0 and 1 at 12.2 the higher batt will drain to the lower because of the pulse, as opposed to a straight DC charge where where as each battery isolated by a branch will charge off that one collector diode. so you can pair diodes or do 3 or 4 collector outputs however you want. you can do it straight vanilla or a cap dump off each collector.

Tom C

[forelle]

Hey Dave,

Thanks for your expert interest in the question posted by Forelle - in my opinion, he is basically frustrated in not being able to live up to the standard of 1:1 COP with his Bedini build as is touted by the principals of this forum. The forum's statement is somewhat unclear in that the "SSG will do one to one" on the primary battery to charge battery exchange of energy (meaning a fully charged exchange) never alluding to the Mode that will accomplish this. The frustration out there is the fact the stock build ( 7 and 8 transistor) in Mode 1 (shall we call it Radiant mode?) yields about a 0.5 COP for the Primary to Charge exchange, give or take, for many of the experimenters, being of course, "unskilled in the art" which may be part of the problem.

Anyway, the mantra for the builds has been max speed, vary the gap, vary the resistance yada,yada based on years of experience to gain the desired result, all very well documented on the forum. I do not dispute the point! Still their (new builders) net efforts have not produced enlightenment in Germany, Austria or other close and distant climes. Some of the problems and frustrations, perhaps self inflicted, are, no doubt, due to the learning process.

So Dave, getting to the point - yes, the current Snowman 8 transistor build has gone through many hours of charge and discharge. The Primary output and Charge input amperage have been measured with a good quality clamp DC meter using new system batteries. The C20 discharging is done with a 6 watt 12v auto bulb . In all the testing to date, there has been very good agreement between these amperage values and the actual battery discharge capacities. Being a Luddite, I normally opt for the simplified methodology and leave the more technical aspects for the more stringent focus testing.

For example, a 230cca 12 volt battery used as a Primary output source for an identical Charge battery (both conditioned of course) on a 8 transistor build tuned to max speed etc will require about 1.75 amps output (give or take) and input about 0.9 amps to the charge battery yielding an approximate Input/Output ratio of 0.5.

So in essence, in this instance, it takes nearly 2 Primary charges of a 9.5 amp hr batteries (tested) to bring a 9.2 amp hr Charge battery (tested) to 15.3v from 12.2v and then subsequently discharged down to 12.2v at C20. The Charge battery COP will consistently reflect a 1:1 ratio, while Charge/Primary COP (~0.5) here has been very reflective of the I/O amp ratio. Of course the wild card here is the elusive Radiant.

This is repeatable and has been many times! Of course there are those anomalies that push you to think outside of the box...

So the critical point here, is a 1:1 exchange between Primary and Charge battery doable in a 21 magnet build Mode 1 for a 7 and 8 transistor standard build tuned with a nominal 26" wheel? That I believe is the pivotal question that is the frustration point for many builders beyond normal points of inexperience. Can an example of this be shown to uplift the many builders and benign lurkers? There is a huge following here...

As one of the respected elders we rely on your wisdom and knowledge. Your attention is appreciated and thoroughly apologize for putting you on the spot. If there are reticent builders out there that are over this hump - speak up and support the effort!

Still immensely enjoying this adventure,
Yaro

Hi
you are right,basicaly im frustrated(i would say ofcourse because i am rebuilding a maschine and not inventing) that i am after 11/2 year and 3 different wheels and reading both SG books and the DVD33 and all whats written about this maschine i didnt have the slightest improvement in the COP.When i begann i started with a 6 coil maschine,i build it hooked it up and it was giving me a COP of 0.5 right away,that was 2 Years ago.Then i build a SG because i didnt came above 0.5.
Till now nothing has changed.
I have all like its suggested exept the coil is 7xAWG19 and 1xAWG 22.Till now I have run it most time with a powersupply because i didnt want to charge the battery with a standard charger so i ordered 2A12.
My suggestion to all newcomers is to build it exactly like it should be.If you reached 1-1 you can make modifications,not before.

[Kamen]

Hi Tom,

Can you please share a little more about that branch circuit. If using Radiant mode and only two branches - do you split half the coil strands and their corresponding Collector diodes to charge one battery and the other half of the strands charging another battery? And if doing a Cap Discharge do you then use two separate Comparators discharging to two separate batteries?

I always wondered how branch circuits differ from simply using multiple Charge batteries in parallel. This is on my list try try out.

Thanks,
Kamen

[Yaro1776]

COP Hump

Hey Dave,

Thanks for your expert interest in the question posted by Forelle - in my opinion, he is basically frustrated in not being able to live up to the standard of 1:1 COP with his Bedini build as is touted by the principals of this forum. The forum's statement is somewhat unclear in that the "SSG will do one to one" on the primary battery to charge battery exchange of energy (meaning a fully charged exchange) never alluding to the Mode that will accomplish this. The frustration out there is the fact the stock build ( 7 and 8 transistor) in Mode 1 (shall we call it Radiant mode?) yields about a 0.5 COP for the Primary to Charge exchange, give or take, for many of the experimenters, being of course, "unskilled in the art" which may be part of the problem.

Anyway, the mantra for the builds has been max speed, vary the gap, vary the resistance yada,yada based on years of experience to gain the desired result, all very well documented on the forum. I do not dispute the point! Still their (new builders) net efforts have not produced enlightenment in Germany, Austria or other close and distant climes. Some of the problems and frustrations, perhaps self inflicted, are, no doubt, due to the learning process.

So Dave, getting to the point - yes, the current Snowman 8 transistor build has gone through many hours of charge and discharge. The Primary output and Charge input amperage have been measured with a good quality clamp DC meter using new system batteries. The C20 discharging is done with a 6 watt 12v auto bulb . In all the testing to date, there has been very good agreement between these amperage values and the actual battery discharge capacities. Being a Luddite, I normally opt for the simplified methodology and leave the more technical aspects for the more stringent focus testing.

For example, a 230cca 12 volt battery used as a Primary output source for an identical Charge battery (both conditioned of course) on a 8 transistor build tuned to max speed etc will require about 1.75 amps output (give or take) and input about 0.9 amps to the charge battery yielding an approximate Input/Output ratio of 0.5.

So in essence, in this instance, it takes nearly 2 Primary charges of a 9.5 amp hr batteries (tested) to bring a 9.2 amp hr Charge battery (tested) to 15.3v from 12.2v and then subsequently discharged down to 12.2v at C20. The Charge battery COP will consistently reflect a 1:1 ratio, while Charge/Primary COP (~0.5) here has been very reflective of the I/O amp ratio. Of course the wild card here is the elusive Radiant.

This is repeatable and has been many times! Of course there are those anomalies that push you to think outside of the box...

So the critical point here, is a 1:1 exchange between Primary and Charge battery doable in a 21 magnet build Mode 1 for a 7 and 8 transistor standard build tuned with a nominal 26" wheel? That I believe is the pivotal question that is the frustration point for many builders beyond normal points of inexperience. Can an example of this be shown to uplift the many builders and benign lurkers? There is a huge following here...

As one of the respected elders we rely on your wisdom and knowledge. Your attention is appreciated and thoroughly apologize for putting you on the spot. If there are reticent builders out there that are over this hump - speak up and support the effort!

Still immensely enjoying this adventure,
Yaro

[Tom C]

Kamen,

That is a good list... you can add
all of those modes with a branch modification splitting the output to more than one cap dump... branch mode in gen mode is also very interesting.

Tom C

[Kamen]

Hi Patrick,

It has been a while since I tried Generator mode without the diode. If I remember correctly the Charging battery voltage climbed very fast but can't remember what the Primary voltage did. The wheel RPM decreased dramatically almost like the magnet was struggling to go pass the coil. As soon as I get my batteries conditioned a little better I will try that again. What was your experience with that?

From DVDs 33 and 34 I believe John demonstrated five different modes. Can't wait to purchase the Small Comparator from TeslagenX and try them all.
1. RADIANT
2. GENERATOR with DIODE
3. GENERATOR without DIODE
4. CAP DISCHARGE
5. CAP DISCHARGE with GENERATOR DIODE

Kamen

[min2oly]

Hi Kamen,
What were the battery voltages both for the

charging battery -
and the
primary run battery -

when you employed the Neg2Neg without the diode?

Did anyone happen to catch the 4th mode in vid 33?
Thanks,
Patrick

Hi Gary,

This is very interesting about not using the diode and getting a better charge. Have you seen the EFV DVD 34 filmed at the last conference? While John Bedini was talking one of his friends took the microphone and described why NOT using the diode is a bad idea. The reason given was that without the diode the charge can go back in a sense that the electrolyte will charge and discharge with each pulse. However if you use the diode the energy can flow in one direction and just keep charging. This is at least how I understood it. I am doing some conditioning of the batteries right now with regular charger, but once that's done I will try Generator mode without the diode to see what it does. When I briefly tried that before the RPM went way down without the diode. With the diode it was faster and when using Radiant it was even faster.

Kamen

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Hobbyrobotic,

Here's the page scans of the two charge curves and the discharge curve in between.

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Guys,

@Kamen ...........I was at the conference and heard that as well. I also have both EFV DVD 33 and EFV DVD 34. I just decided to experiment with it because Patrick and some others reported good results without the diode.

@Tom ............Thanks Tom My dad passed away shortly after I got home from the conference, so my sister and I had to spend a lot of time settling his estate. Then I bought a go kart for the grandkids. That, the Bradley, and some honey-do jobs took up the rest of the year. Then there were a couple of one week vacations and the holidays thrown in. Family first you know!

@Hobbyrobotic ...............Those were the two charge curves I reported on. I'll try uploading a screen shot of them and the last discharge curve as well latter today or tomorrow.

@Dave Wing .........................1) It's been a few months since I checked the capacity of each battery. I think the charge battery was about 8 or 9 AH's and the paralleled primaries together were also about 8 or 9 AH last time I checked with a .65 amp draw to 12.0 volts. The batteries are nearly four years old and have been somewhat abused.

2) I ran a whole series of tests like that in radiant mode with my second ssg both in repulsion and attraction. I even tried the cap dump from the intermediate handbook. Probably a total of 80 to 100 runs. Never did get over about 1.5 in to 1 out in terms of AH's. Was real discouraged until I tried charge mode at a lower, specifically consistent one AH rate. Even then I was only getting 1.5 in to 1 out with the second build ssg.

3) I've only had my new ssg (third build) going for a couple of days now and reported on both runs with it! Great improvement over the last machine I put together. I still have to increase it's free spin time though before I do any serious runs in radiant mode.

[Dave Wing]

Hi Gary,

1)Have you tested each battery for C-20 amp hour rating? If so how many actual amp hours did your primary and secondary batteries turn out to be?

2)Have you tried to fully charge one of the above, known amp hour batteries, that were discharged fully @ the C-20 rate to 10.5 volts (agm or deepcycle conditioned battery)or 12.2volts (if a conditioned starter battery) with one fully charged primary battery of known amp hour rating? What were the results? Did you get 1:1 with this configuration? I do believe that was the question forelle had actually asked.

Interested to hear your results or any others that may have recorded these actual results.

Thanks,

Dave Wing