Bedini SG Machine 8 - Transistor Kit Help Needed to make it run

[James McDonald]

Hi All --

Short story is my Bedini SG Machine is now running. Long story is how did I make it work. First lets start with
what John Bedini always said on all his videos and at the conferences. "Build the machine as I say to do it. Do not
make any changes." John Bedini also quote's Nikola Tesla by saying what he said "For those Skilled in the Art" you
can do whatever you want to do but make sure you know what your doing. I knew all along that my coil was going
to put out a stronger magnetic field due to the eight 16 gauge wires at 144 foot in length. By the way I am using
my 18 gauge trigger wire and not the 23 gauge trigger wire. My coil has both. The transistors do not get even warm
and they feel as if there is no power at all applied to them. Below are some voltage and current measurements
I made before and after running the SG Machine for 30 minutes.


Primary Battery start voltage was at 12.52 volts.
Charge Battery start voltage was at 12.48 volts.

Battery voltage after 30 minutes of running the SG Machine.

Primary Battery end voltage was at 12.38 volts.
Charge Battery end voltage was at 12.64 volts.

Current measurements while running Primary side - 0.34 amps.
Current measurements while running Charge side - 0.32 amps.

Now to get into what made the wheel start to run. First I added Neodymium Iron Boron 100 pound
pull magnets to the wheel on top of the number 8 ceramic magnets 2 at a time up till 8 where place on
the wheel. This is what over come the strong magnetic field the coil was putting out. Then the wheel
starting running on its own and from the looks of it it might be going slightly over 300 RPM.

-- James

Hi Tom --

I would like to have the coil working as I have $125.00 in material into the coil not to mention the 30 man hours
and the cost of making a coil winding rig. How much will it cost me other then the shipping both ways for you to do
this? This is not just a quick 1 hour time to look at and rewind you are talking about here.

Thanks again,

-- James

[Yaro1776]

Hi All --


Current measurements while running Primary side - 0.34 amps.
Current measurements while running Charge side - 0.32 amps.

-- James

James,

Your send is very intriguing in that you put together an out of the box build and made it work through persistence. More over your numbers for the amperage in/out are somewhat mindblowing considering that it is a first time build of an SSG. Most first time builds are lucky to achieve a measly 0.65 ratio on the in/out side. Furthermore the inclusion of the neo magnets, though against common practice and knowledge, actually made this build work. Go figure...

I suggest that you verify your instrumentation and reads - I will note that it would be very useful to everyone to have a better take on the rpm and gap for the given setup. If you have the capability, a read on the transistor temps would be great! Of course a couple of screen shots of the wave on an oscilloscope would be very useful, perhaps this is asking too much.

Suggestion here is to have a real time video read on the input/output voltage and amperage - well yes you do need four meters to accomplish this in real time.

I would really like to see this build in action - unfortunately I cannot be in your area until September. Thanks for the PM and video.

Awesome!
Keep plugging Bubba,
Yaro

[powerdraw]

Hey there..hope you're having better luck..I am a beginner and only just got my wheel working after countless failures. I suggest you do not deviate from the handbook specs. R60 may be close and even work in right build, but r45 welding rods are specified and I found there to be significant differences in composition. Namely iron and carbon..you want the most iron and least carbon so magnetism can come and go without residual magnetism "sticking around" to drag things dowm. I had tried #7 birdshot suggested by Paul Babcock in an interview with Arron Murkami whererin in said he had a couple SG motors running with the birdshot cores..naybe true, but I'm sure he modified things to make it work. My birdshot coil core did not produce enough current in trigger; upon rebuilding with R45 rods everything took off great. And I'd use 20 guage for power wires and 23 guage for single trigger. And to make coil winding a breeze (believe me, I wound mine 5 times with same wire before succeeding) see my ratchet wrench set up. Just a wrench in a vise, a bolt that fits coil spool snug (3/4 inch) backing collar and nut and a barcket to support end of bolt. Vise grips on the bolt end make handle to crank...feels like a million dollar deep sea fishing reel!..and winds nice and tight...hope this helps!

[jelloir]

Can anyone confirm if the difference between R45 and R60 welding rods makes any difference in the machines performance? I have been testing my new SSG using a timing light to tune it, something that struck me is that it seems like it discharges the coil quite a bit past the coil; like the next magnet is almost over the core by the time it discharges (my magnets are currently just over 3" apart). I know it discharges after the magnet has left the coil, but wonder if this was anything to do with the residual magnetism in the core and how I can reduce the trigger "on" time? I tested a spare R60 rod and can magnetize it? Is that normal or should the magnetism disappear?

[powerdraw]

Hey there, I went through problems with trying to use R60 versus R45 and googled the composition of each to find out there are differrences in composition regarding the iron and carbon as well as a few outright differrences . I'm not expert eniough to say R60 can't work with the right adjustments, but when I rebuilt my core with R45 as specified in the handbook, I got immediate good results. R45 has a greater iron content, which mediates the magnetism, and also is lower in carbon as R60 can be as high as .15% and R45 is lower at .08%. The higher carbon in R60 might cause unwanted retention of magnetism thwarting your wheel spin. I was advised to go by the book with R45 and it made difference between running and not running. Hope this helps and good luck!

[powerdraw]

ps...you want that magnetism to disappear..that a good part of the problem..

[jelloir]

Yeah, thing is my core isn't coming out to test different rods, that sucker is super glued to the max! I think it was Bobzilla who suggest a blob of crazy glue on the top of the rods and bobbin so you can tap it out later if required.

[Tom C]

I have run R60 R70 R45 on the same machine same coil same everything the only difference was the core. all 3 ran similar. you will only have magnetic retention problems if you use neo mags over a period of time, remember the core is being flipped and charged so its poles are constantly changing. residual magnetism if any is being destroyed by the constant polarity switching.

Tom C

[jelloir]

Thanks Tom, I thought attraction mode meant the coil never changes polarity, it's always south? That partly got me thinking about the residual magnetism aspect, whereas repulsion switches poles.

[Tom C]

the poles of the coil switch irregardless of the direction of the coil. the modes have to do with whether or not the magnet is pulled into the coils field, or pushed away.

Tom C

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Tom,

the poles of the coil switch irregardless of the direction of the coil. the modes have to do with whether or not the magnet is pulled into the coils field, or pushed away.

Tom C

On page 73 of "Bedini SG, The Complete Beginner's Handbook" I found the following statement ....1. In the Repulsion Mode, energy from the Battery is used to reverse the magnetic field in the Main Coil. This amount of energy cannot be recovered when the magnetic field collapses. Since the magnet field never reverses in the Attraction Mode, this loss of energy does not occur.

Are you saying Aaron and Peter got it wrong in the book?

[Tom C]

Gary, et all,

This is my understanding of the circuit, as the magnet approaches the core it induces flux into the core, the rising flux induces current into the trigger winding, this opens the base. this change in flux is what does this. the minute the magnet is over the coil the flux density is at its max. the magnet should stop at this point over the coil. And if current did not flow into the coil when the magnet hit the top of the coil, the wheel would stop. the core would be magnetized by the magnet (attracted to each other) and would not move. when the base opens it allows current to rush thru the coil into the charge battery, this also causes the polarity of the core to switch, making it north, and turning off the base and allowing the magnet on past the core attracting the scalar south. I am talking about what turns on and off the trigger.

any induced residual magnetism is destroyed by the pulse. the electromagnet action of the coil does not reverse its poles, there is always only 1 north or south on an electromagnet. the core is changing, otherwise the magnet would stay over the pole.

there has been a lot of discussion on attraction and repulsion mode, whether the magnet is pulled in or pushed out. JB in the past has said the machine runs on the scalar south. when running in attraction mode the south is pulled in by the coil as that field collapses it is attracted to the coil. in repulsion mode it is running on the north magnet face it being pushed away by the core. this gives a bit more insight as to why there was sweet spots in repulsion mode, you were trying to find a resonant point with the stronger north magnet field.

sorry if I muddied the waters, I was looking at the core function not at the field of the coil switching. it does switch off and on but the poles of the electromagnet do not reverse. this would not matter which way the coil is wound I do not think.

I try to understand the coil from the basics of standard electromagnet theory. this quote is from:
http://www.howmagnetswork.com/Electromagnetism.html

"The electromagnet acts as a magnet only so long as the current is flowing in the solenoid. The moment the current is switched off the solenoid is demagnetized. The core of the electromagnet must be of soft iron because soft iron loses all of its magnetism when current in the coil is switched off. Steel is not used in electromagnets, because it does not lose all its magnetism when the current is stopped and becomes a permanent magnet."

anyone feel free to chime in here...

Tom C

[min2oly]

I’ll chime in – we ran numerous experiments on this and have a couple of vids up verifying the coil flip after the switch – that is not including the induced current in the trigger that turns the transistor on. When the transistor allows the current to flow into the coil, the coil is charged – period. This turns the coil into an electro magnet w/ polarity N/S* - When the field collapses, the coil’s polarity flips as the current is flowing in the opposite direction to charge the battery at that moment the coil’s polarity is S/N* (I randomly chose N/S* for this statement only to illustrate they are opposite/they flip).

An easy experiment is to eliminate the wheel and switch the transistor manually while monitoring the coils polarity w/ a dangling magnet or a magnet polarity detector. We can use a small coil w/ low voltage and monitor the current’s directional flow using LED’s , no transistor necessary, just put the coil across the battery and let go.

Now, I can’t recall the circumstances or the verbiage Peter and Aaron used in the book. I would be interested to know if they only meant that in attraction mode, this “flip” is utilized somehow or suppressed by the stronger magnetic field rather than not occurring at all.... hmmmm, well I guess if it is suppressed then by definition it does not happen...

As Tom noted in repulsion mode timing is everything, very true. However, my own experiments lead me to believe timing still plays a critical role in attraction as well.

Take anything I say with a grain of salt – do your own experiments so you can see for yourselves…
KR,
Patrick

Gary, et all,

This is my understanding of the circuit, as the magnet approaches the core it induces flux into the core, the rising flux induces current into the trigger winding, this opens the base. this change in flux is what does this. the minute the magnet is over the coil the flux density is at its max. the magnet should stop at this point over the coil. And if current did not flow into the coil when the magnet hit the top of the coil, the wheel would stop. the core would be magnetized by the magnet (attracted to each other) and would not move. when the base opens it allows current to rush thru the coil into the charge battery, this also causes the polarity of the core to switch, making it north, and turning off the base and allowing the magnet on past the core attracting the scalar south. I am talking about what turns on and off the trigger.

any induced residual magnetism is destroyed by the pulse. the electromagnet action of the coil does not reverse its poles, there is always only 1 north or south on an electromagnet. the core is changing, otherwise the magnet would stay over the pole.

there has been a lot of discussion on attraction and repulsion mode, whether the magnet is pulled in or pushed out. JB in the past has said the machine runs on the scalar south. when running in attraction mode the south is pulled in by the coil as that field collapses it is attracted to the coil. in repulsion mode it is running on the north magnet face it being pushed away by the core. this gives a bit more insight as to why there was sweet spots in repulsion mode, you were trying to find a resonant point with the stronger north magnet field.

sorry if I muddied the waters, I was looking at the core function not at the field of the coil switching. it does switch off and on but the poles of the electromagnet do not reverse. this would not matter which way the coil is wound I do not think.

I try to understand the coil from the basics of standard electromagnet theory. this quote is from:
http://www.howmagnetswork.com/Electromagnetism.html

"The electromagnet acts as a magnet only so long as the current is flowing in the solenoid. The moment the current is switched off the solenoid is demagnetized. The core of the electromagnet must be of soft iron because soft iron loses all of its magnetism when current in the coil is switched off. Steel is not used in electromagnets, because it does not lose all its magnetism when the current is stopped and becomes a permanent magnet."

anyone feel free to chime in here...

Tom C

[Gary Hammond]

I re-read Aaron and Peter's beginners book pages 70 thru 73 and I think they basically got it right. I also test ran my machine and checked the scope traces on both the collector -emitter circuit and the base - emitter circuit. I think there is some confusion between the induced voltage polarity and the direction of the magnetic flux in the core. The direction of the magnetic flux in the core reverses direction only in the repulsion mode, and not in the attraction mode.

The increasing and decreasing flux provide the induced voltage polartity shifts we see on the scope and this triggers the transistor on and off. In attraction mode the flux induced by the approching north pole of the magnet produces an opposite - or south pole on the top of the core. This turns on the transistor and the resulting current flow reinforces this flux in the core for good mechanical attraction. As soon as the coil is carring as much current as it can, the induced magnetic flux stops increasing and induces a reverse voltage in the trigger coil and base - emitter circuit turning the transistor off. The flux collapses inducing high voltage in both circuits and the south pole at the top of the core disappears allowing the momentum of the wheel to carry the north pole permanent magnet past the wheel. If the wheel is rotating too slowly, the process is repeated before the magnet reaches the edge of the core resulting in a double pulse. This is how my machine is running at the moment.

In conclusion - the core polarity only switches n-s-n-s in repulsion mode and merely pulses on and off in the same direction s-s-s-s in attraction mode.

[Yaro1776]

Gary,

Very nice explanation of the magnetic flux and induced voltage polarity shifts that occur in the SSG Coil.

Thank You,
Yaro