Bedini SG Machine 8 - Transistor Kit Help Needed to make it run

[Yaro1776]

Back to James's In/Out Amp Data


We seem to be drifting away from the core of this thread, James's data with the monster coil is producing a very high Primary/Charge amp ratio for a first time cobbed together build while using neo magnets. All of this flies in the face of accepted build procedure for the SSG, yet it is charging the rather large group 27 battery. It is early times on this build, yet the initial In/Out Amp ratio is better than 0.90 - go figure!

The question here is why does this build exceed expectation? More to come from James on this...

Best to all,
Yaro

[jelloir]

Thanks to all for the clarification and sorry for the thread hijack. I too noticed the amp ratio James is getting for his non-standard build which is why I chimed in with my question in case it has relevance because I have scratching my head on how to squeeze more performance from my build. The best I can manage is about 0.65 ratio for my by the book Bedini build. I know that the battery is where you see the gain but it seems like the amp in/out ratio can be a fair indicator of performance, am I wrong in thinking this?

Thanks

James

[BobZilla]

On a properly tuned machine you do not want to see high current on your output. If you do then you have built a generator.

Why would this be happening with heavy magnets, probably because it is a generator and this is induction. You do not want or need a heavy magnet, it is only there to open the base and provide a little field for the core to pull on to keep momentum of the wheel.

Yes you can put Neo's and many types of magnets on there because they are magnets after all aren't they. You still want the right tool for the job however.

Try and remember what this charge is supposed to be, high potential, not a current charge.

[min2oly]

James,
please chime in if you think this is too off topic. Bob is correct about the current, however, I always feel that you should take your build where it wants to go especially if you are getting good results no one else is. Please continue to keep us posted.

That being said - Gary...
I just re-read those pages, I think Aaron and Peter were talking about the interaction of the core/current vs the passing magnet.
rather than only the coil vs current flow.

I think these are two different subjects and maybe I just confused them earlier or did not understand the original question.

So w/o the magnet charging the coil, if we just put current potential on a coil, the coil charges which creates a polarity, when it discharges the polarity flips. This is all I was trying to say.

When we add the wheel/passing magnet, we have many more flips to line up and contend w/. a north facing magnet actually has 3 poles facing out S-N-S. A south facing magnet is N-S-N.

I don't think Peter and Aaron were talking about the same thing I'm talking about in their book.
Kind Regards,
Patrick A.

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Patrick,

I don't think the core of the electro magnet flips polarity at all when the winding is energized and then de-energzed. Only the self induced voltage in the coil winding reverses polarity on de-energization.

I just hooked up one of my coils directly to the battery and then disconnected it. I held my polarity tester next to the top of the core while doing this and it showed a north pole the whole time until the residual magnetism left the core after a very short time! Never got a south pole reading at any time on the top of the core. Checked the bottom of the core as well, and was only south pole all the time.

The core doesn't flip polarity. Only the induced voltage on the windings flips!


Sorry for the hi-jack. Maybe we need to start a new thread on magnetic core reversals vs self induced voltage reversals.

[BobZilla]

Gary that makes perfect sense to me without having tested to verify. The reason is because forward current is responsible for the strength of the magnetic field (detectable). The reverse voltage of the collapsing field has practically no current, it has high voltage.

Patrick you are right, everyone should do whatever they think is best with their system but I am trying to point out fundamental concepts before all the new comers start thinking that they are seeking current on the output.

There is little info to go on about this particular machine but I am thinking that Tom probably had it right when he suggested the long fat coil was not getting enough induction on the trigger. BJT's need current not voltage to activate. The normal magnets perhaps were probably not producing enough current to activate the base but adding a few powerful magnets did it may have been to much resistance in the trigger path too.

If that is the case than it will only be firing where he has placed those neo's and the others are not firing. I'm curious too if the system pushes up to 15v or if it is just pushing up a little. I could see where if the wiring were backwards their could be a little boost of induction kicking up the secondary as a generator. Primary voltage plus induction basically.

The bottom line is powerful magnets are not needed if the machine is tuned. Many people think they have something to do with the charging but they do not. The wheel, the trigger wire, the magnets, all of that is really only in support of switching the coil off and on. It is a very clever switch is all.

[min2oly]

Need a better test perhaps... put a FWBR and charge something w/ low impedance to force your coil to behave slow enough for your detector to catch it?
So current/voltage reverses but not polarity??? ah... does not compute :-) or voltage reverses but not current???
My scope shows plenty of reverse current, look at any of my vids. Bob I was not saying anything at all against your post. bottom line many of us conducted these experiments in the past and came to the same conclusion w/ a proper core, coil flips. I'll stop as I have nothing to prove... it is of no importance - nothing to see here.
KR,
Patrick

Hi Patrick,

I don't think the core of the electro magnet flips polarity at all when the winding is energized and then de-energzed. Only the self induced voltage in the coil winding reverses polarity on de-energization.

[BobZilla]

Patrick I have no bone to pick with you buddy, really. I have a lot of respect for you and your work. If I have offended you or even just peeved you a bit I'm sorry.

I don't have anything to prove either but as I said I did not see anyone else mentioning that when people start talking about the improvements that neo's make and wow how much current they can get,, someone who knows better out of our group should at least state that that is a different animal than the SSG.


I have not really even looked into the polarity flip thing but what I was trying to say is when Gary tested it and says he did not see it I think is perhaps because you need significant current to make an electromagnet work and the reverse or collapse does not contain much current. It probably is there but in a very small amount. No question in my mind that there is a polarity reversal but it is at such a high voltage low current signal I'm not sure if it would produce a magnetic field of much significance.

[powerdraw]

Gary, thanks for your articulation/explanation of the magnetic flux etc., when I read the handbook, I only sort of got it and your explanation helps to clarify things. I'm no expert and just learning and I'm glad to have a running machine as well as understand it a bit better. I built the tunable intermediate handbook version in attraction mode with matched transistors having gone through 50 transistors. Actually got about 5 sets with one set being almost perfectly matched. I did the 100 ohm resistors with the 1k pot which lets me tune the run speed and now I am just running and observing and learning what this thing can do. Thanks again!

[Gary Hammond]

Hi Patrick,

...........or voltage reverses but not current??? .........
KR,
Patrick

Yeah, I think that's exactly what happens.

The full current is flowing in the coil when the transistor is turned on and causing a magnetic flux to flow in the core. When the transistor turns off, the stored energy in the magnetic flux begins to collapse inducing the current in the winding to flow in the same direction it had been going when the transistor was on. This is the electrical inertia we are trying to take advantage of. The coil winding now acts momentarily like a battery until the energy in the flux is totally dissipated. What was the negative end of the coil now becomes the positive end (and vice/versa) temporarily behaving like a battery with the collapsing flux energy acting like the electrolyte.

There is very little current flow in the coil winding during this flux collapse, but the voltage will reach whatever level is required to force the induced current through whatever load is attached to the coil.

[James McDonald]

Hi All --

New details on my SG build as I was tuning it. I did have 8 Rare Earth Magnets at 100 pounds of pull each. This was reduced
down to 7. The gap between the magnets and the top of the coil is 1 inch. I hooked up a Bell 300 bike computer to my build to get
an RPM reading. Thanks a lot Yaro for giving me the input numbers to have the read out of the bike computer read in RPM's. With
the trigger coil hooked up to to add in the 12 ohm resistor to the build I was getting 340 RPM's. Yaro told me to move the trigger
wire to take the 12 ohm resistor out of the circuit and then the SG wheel took off and the RPMs went up to 595. That was a 255
RPM increase. Zoom!!! Zoom!!!. The charge battery is charging slow but the size of the battery is big. The size is a number 27 Deep
Cycle Marine battery that started at 12.74 and moved up to 12.81 volts within 30 minutes. The cold air coming off the SG wheel
feels as if its 60 degrees. I will take real measurements of the temperatures in the room, off the front and back of the SG wheel and
also right on the transistors. This data will come in my next post.

-- James

We seem to be drifting away from the core of this thread, James's data with the monster coil is producing a very high Primary/Charge amp ratio for a first time cobbed together build while using neo magnets. All of this flies in the face of accepted build procedure for the SSG, yet it is charging the rather large group 27 battery. It is early times on this build, yet the initial In/Out Amp ratio is better than 0.90 - go figure!

The question here is why does this build exceed expectation? More to come from James on this...

Best to all,
Yaro

[Yaro1776]

Zoom, Zoom...

Hey James,

Glad to help out on this fun (yet frustrating at times for you) build - the RPM without the trigger resistor is almost out of control; careful with the fingers...

BobZ's comment on the neo's creating the firing of the transistors sounds dead on since the machine only stuttered with the original ceramics and his comment on getting to max battery charge voltage needs to be considered. The 107 A/h battery will take forever to fully charge, and considering the present ~300 milliamp charge rate it may be worthwhile from a time standpoint alone to use a way smaller charge battery to verify max charge voltage capability .

Can you verify the coil gap with a plastic ruler (1"+)?

Keep us posted on the McD build...
Yaro

[Tom C]

James,

so what do you think is happening when that resistor is removed. how much current do you think those neo mags are generating in the core... wow a huge amount, which is why a mere 12 ohm change in resistance increases rpm so much... what do you think it is doing to your bases? it is slamming them wide open, so much so that the current in the electromagnet becomes huge!!

regardless of core "flipping" which way the coil does or does not flip, what pole is it, (great discussion by the way!) we have a more important question and it is the question of the century.... what is charging the battery? why did John build the machine? do we want current or potential? this question depends upon a lot of factors, such as am I restoring batteries, or just keeping them good? am I trying to harness the quantum state or just use transformer action? too much current off the primary and your efficiency goes down, not enough and the potential does not rise hi enough in the coil to move the ions in the electrolyte. resistance in the coil also plays a factor, but it is resistance and a certain frequency, so wire size length and turns makes a difference.

I can understand why your machine is screaming fast! the neo mags have so much energy inside of them, there is a good reason they are used in generators.

Tom C

[James McDonald]

Hi Tom --

I will be getting more numbers from my SG this weekend. I did not measure the currents yet
after the modification was made. However before the change the current in the Primary was 0.34
Amps and the current on the charge battery was 0.30 Amps. I did feel the transistors to see if they
were overheating and after 30 minutes of running you could not tell if the transistors were even
on. Granted since the speed of the SG wheel increased 57 percent one would think that the current
should have increased in a similar amount which is yet to be measured. The resistance in the coil
based on footage of copper wire should put my coil at 0.2 ohm less then yours. So not much difference
there. I do have two trigger wires in my coil. One that is 23 gauge and one that is 18 gauge. The
18 gauge trigger wire is currently hooked up. When the change was made I too was even shocked
at the results in the speed increase. I was only expecting it to go up or down at most 20 RPMs when
the change was made. I have also been wondering if all the others 8 transistor boards had the flux
cleaned off of them? Analog circuits and flux left on the boards sometimes created resistance paths
that may not be good for circuit performance. My board was cleaned with DI water. By the way once my
credit card statement comes and I clear that off I will be ordering another 8 transistor kit from you. I do
not want to dismantle this setup yet till I learn a little more from it. Expect a board kit order sometime
after August 5th.

-- James

James,

so what do you think is happening when that resistor is removed. how much current do you think those neo mags are generating in the core... wow a huge amount, which is why a mere 12 ohm change in resistance increases rpm so much... what do you think it is doing to your bases? it is slamming them wide open, so much so that the current in the electromagnet becomes huge!!

regardless of core "flipping" which way the coil does or does not flip, what pole is it, (great discussion by the way!) we have a more important question and it is the question of the century.... what is charging the battery? why did John build the machine? do we want current or potential? this question depends upon a lot of factors, such as am I restoring batteries, or just keeping them good? am I trying to harness the quantum state or just use transformer action? too much current off the primary and your efficiency goes down, not enough and the potential does not rise hi enough in the coil to move the ions in the electrolyte. resistance in the coil also plays a factor, but it is resistance and a certain frequency, so wire size length and turns makes a difference.

I can understand why your machine is screaming fast! the neo mags have so much energy inside of them, there is a good reason they are used in generators.

Tom C

[Tom C]

James,

your ammeter reading is really low.for a machine running that fast!! i would think it was drawing 3.4 amps instead of .34 or 340 milliamps. could you double check that for us.

Tom C