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  • SSG Charge Battery Performance - Mode 1

    I have been meaning to post my findings on SSG Charge battery performance for some time now, however life events proved to be overly distracting. I have been running SSG testing for about a year and a half, and during that time noted several experimenters on this forum complaining that their LAB charge battery performance had noticeably declined during their COP testing. I did not pay attention to these comments until I experienced similar results.

    The following posts will present a general commentary and observations on this charge capacity degradation effect. All the SSG data is well documented over many pages of test notes. Please note that this is not a criticism of the SSG, but a close look at the impact of the spike phenomenon on the Charge battery by a curious experimenter.

    My SSG testing started with four NAPA 8224 (CA 275 & CCA 230) spec garden tractor batteries, two brand new and two with ~50 mowing hours on them. The batteries were all conditioned and tweaked with a 2A12 or 1AU Energenx chargers. The new batteries, after conditioning, showed a bit more than 19 hours of discharge time down to a 12.2 volt threshold at a C20 rate of ~0.5 amps using a 6 watt automotive bulb, whereas the two used batteries came in at 15-16 hours of discharge time at the same rate. So, this was the baseline established for future comparisons.

    Each set of one used and one new were designated for the Primary and Charge positions throughout all the testing over the past 15 months. This designation was a constant and the batteries were never switched between the Primary and Charge positions.

    During this period the SSG testing used a single battery for the Charge side and twin batteries in parallel on the Primary side. So one Charge battery was typically being discharged, while the other was being pumped up by the SSG. The Primary batteries were always charged with either a 10A12, 2A12 or 1AU.

    Diligent research on this forum in the early days of this SSG testing yielded the max recommended charge parameters of 15.3v and minimum discharge of 12.3v . Initially, these limits were closely adhered to over many runs (more than 20 per Charge battery), however over a period of time it was noted that the Ah capacity of the charge batteries was slowly degrading. Being a relative newbie to all this the initial reaction was "what am I doing incorrectly here". Head scratching time as the battery performance for both Charge batteries slowly diminished down to 6 or 7 hours and less of discharge time. Other experimenters had noted this effect and claimed that continual use of the SSG in Mode 1 operation was destroying their batteries over time.

    The SSG in Mode 1 was thought to improve battery performance over multiple runs. So this was a puzzle that needed some thorough investigation. What evolved out of this was a parallel test program to determine what the real maximum charge and minimum discharge levels should be on a well used charge battery in order to have useful and valid results. The essential question here is why does this happen? Does the Mode 1 pulse charging alter/modify the basic plate chemistry? Can the Ah capacity be brought back to a reasonable level?

    More on this soon, or to be continued...
    Yaro
    Last edited by Yaro1776; 02-28-2015, 05:02 AM. Reason: Battery type clarification
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

  • #2
    SSG Charge Battery Performance - Mode 1 - Part 2

    So to start, the SSG used in all the below observations is an 8 Transistor TX board and coil configuration with a nominal 22.5" diameter wheel and 21 ceramic magnets. The DVM is a BK 389 and the clamp-on DC amp meter a Sears 65EA. Wheel rpm Bell 100 bike speedometer. The SSG was always run in attraction mode.

    Over the initial period of testing it was noted that the Primary and Charge amperages are a function of the coil gap (distance between top of coil and magnet face) and the trigger resistance. Varying the trigger resistance would normally change the rpm and amperages. The maximum charge voltage was always set at 15.3v during the initial tests with the amperages and battery voltages noted at regular intervals.

    The learning process began when it was noted that different combinations of gap and trigger resistance produced inconsistent Charge battery discharge times and variable charge times to 15.3v. What the heck? A close look at the data showed that the charge and discharge times were related to the Charge amperage. Further testing with the voltmeter showed that the Charge battery voltage would change when the trigger resistance was altered. Note that the Primary battery voltage will change also.

    One simple test, that was repeated multiple times, was to move the trigger wire from post to post on the fixed resistor, thereby changing the Charge battery voltage, amps and wheel rpm. More telling was the simple test of waiting until the Maximum voltage of 15.3 was reached and then switching the trigger resistance on the fixed resistor. If 12 ohms were subtracted the Charge voltage and amperage would increase, along with an rpm change. Depending on the SSG configuration the voltage increase could be substantial. A more detailed look by BobZ see post 117 http://www.energyscienceforum.com/sh...t=1776&page=12

    OK, now it becomes evident that the maximum voltage of 15.3 is not a consistent and reliable indicator of full battery capacity at different configurations, however with a stable configuration it should yield a consistent discharge time after the battery is broken in over multiple cycles. Ha! Not so...

    Over many Mode 1 cycles the Charge battery will gradually lose Ah capacity. Both of the Charge batteries (old and new) used in this testing exhibited this behavior making COP testing a nightmare. What to do?

    To be continued,
    Yaro
    Last edited by Yaro1776; 03-01-2015, 10:45 AM. Reason: Credit BobZ with detailed explanation w/ url
    Yaro

    "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

    Comment


    • #3
      Yaro
      1 thing id do is less magnets = better spacing= better transistor off or larger diam wheel
      it will help guy
      more magnets no or good spacing yes // me 16 m on 28in

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by guyzzemf View Post
        Yaro
        1 thing id do is less magnets = better spacing= better transistor off or larger diam wheel
        it will help guy
        more magnets no or good spacing yes // me 16 m on 28in
        Hi guyzzemf --

        I have seen Yaro's SG setups and the spacing on the magnets is perfect. As for the bike wheel size he has what you would
        measure being 22.5 inch wheel as a bike wheel without a tire. But once you add a tire to it, he is using the recommended
        26 inch wheel size. He is also using the recommend amount of magnets on that size wheel of 21 which is what John Bedini has on his setup.
        This is the first time that I have ever seen a comment to reduce the amount of magnets. Never heard John Bedini ever say anything before
        on his DVD's or at a conference. However I did notice some differences in performance with less magnets. I cannot say whether it was better
        or worst in charging of lead acid batteries but you could see RPM differences.

        -- James

        Comment


        • #5
          SSG Charge Battery Performance - Mode 1 - Part 3

          Part 3

          Knowing that the maximum charge voltage impacts the Ah capacity of the LAB Charge battery in a given SSG configuration then suggests that increasing the maximum voltage to a higher value should increase the battery capacity. After many individual runs this was found to be true - the Ah capacity did increase.

          The second aspect of this then became the lower minimum discharge voltage. By progressively lowering this threshold to 12.1v at the specified discharge rate more capacity was gained. The combination of increased maximum charge voltage and lowering the minimum discharge voltage increased the overall capacity dramatically back to 11 or 12 hours of discharge time. Mind you that prior to these changes the discharge capacity of the batteries was in the 4-6 Ah range.

          The battery rest voltage after these changes typically settled in the 12.39 to 12.44 volt range after several hours - so the discharge level still remains close to original specs.

          The third aspect of battery charge performance then is what is the true maximum charge voltage? How does one determine this maximum?

          The simple solution is to use a primitive $5 tool that measures the battery's specific gravity. It had been observed that the maximum voltage for full charge was dependent on the SSG configuration. In some instances with the battery charged to the 15.60v level, the specific gravity tool indicated that the battery was only 75 to 80 percent charged. Charging to a higher level of voltage and 100 percent charge increased the Ah capacity. The simple tool works!

          Bear in mind that these batteries have been fully cycled, perhaps 50 times, over the past test period. All this cycling in pulsed Radiant Mode (mode 1) does appear to modify the performance characteristics of the charge battery. In fact, over time the battery appears to become addicted to the higher charge level voltage. Reducing this voltage diminishes Ah capacity. And yes, the battery capacity and characteristics have been modified based on the above observations and many individual tests.

          For comparison purposes, one of the original Primary batteries (new one) was discharged to 12.10v after 2A12 charging and it yielded better than 18 hours of discharge time using the previously mentioned rate of ~0.5 amps. This battery has been cycled many times, so the Energenx chargers do maintain battery integrity and Ah capacity! Both of the original Primary batteries are still in use with this SSG.

          It has been recommended by JB that these batteries can be brought back to useful service and performance by fully discharging to 0.0v and then recharging with a normal charger. This procedure was done once with no real impact, however Tom C. has noted in another thread that several cycles of charge and discharge with a 2A12 are required to bring matters back to normal. Something to try and added to the ever growing list!

          All the above is an initial foray into the weird and fascinating world of the SSG and Radiant energy. It is not complete or definitive, just a simple starting point. Others may have different opinions or methods - my observations are based on fact and repeatable results.

          The adventure continues,
          Yaro
          Yaro

          "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

          Comment


          • #6
            Yaro,

            often a battery will like to go to 16 to get its capacity to 100 percent, something you found out! I love my hydrometer, just wish I could afford one of the real expensive ones

            http://www.eepowersolutions.com/prod...ravity-tester/

            the T 105 I use a lot of really like to be at least 2.5 volts above its rating so 8.5 to get full capacity.

            Tom C


            experimental Kits, chargers and solar trackers

            Comment


            • #7
              All great info man. As you know I ran into these issues too with my setup.

              So using the hydrometer you should be able to identify what voltage the battery wants to charge up to, and then give it some more juice to push it up there. I know the voltage mine were leveling off at changed as the battery became conditioned. But once it levels off the only way to get it climbing again is to give it more current.

              As I'm restoring these old batteries I picked up, the one I'm working on now levels off at around 12.2V and just hangs there. So I wonder if I do a hydrometer test what kind of reading I will get. Will it show fully charged or should I give it more amperage and push it up a bit more. I am beginning to suspect due to a decrease it capactiy vs an increase that these 150AH batteries need a bit more current.

              Good work man.


              Originally posted by Yaro1776 View Post
              Part 3

              Knowing that the maximum charge voltage impacts the Ah capacity of the LAB Charge battery in a given SSG configuration then suggests that increasing the maximum voltage to a higher value should increase the battery capacity. After many individual runs this was found to be true - the Ah capacity did increase.

              The second aspect of this then became the lower minimum discharge voltage. By progressively lowering this threshold to 12.1v at the specified discharge rate more capacity was gained. The combination of increased maximum charge voltage and lowering the minimum discharge voltage increased the overall capacity dramatically back to 11 or 12 hours of discharge time. Mind you that prior to these changes the discharge capacity of the batteries was in the 4-6 Ah range.

              The battery rest voltage after these changes typically settled in the 12.39 to 12.44 volt range after several hours - so the discharge level still remains close to original specs.

              The third aspect of battery charge performance then is what is the true maximum charge voltage? How does one determine this maximum?

              The simple solution is to use a primitive $5 tool that measures the battery's specific gravity. It had been observed that the maximum voltage for full charge was dependent on the SSG configuration. In some instances with the battery charged to the 15.60v level, the specific gravity tool indicated that the battery was only 75 to 80 percent charged. Charging to a higher level of voltage and 100 percent charge increased the Ah capacity. The simple tool works!

              Bear in mind that these batteries have been fully cycled, perhaps 50 times, over the past test period. All this cycling in pulsed Radiant Mode (mode 1) does appear to modify the performance characteristics of the charge battery. In fact, over time the battery appears to become addicted to the higher charge level voltage. Reducing this voltage diminishes Ah capacity. And yes, the battery capacity and characteristics have been modified based on the above observations and many individual tests.

              For comparison purposes, one of the original Primary batteries (new one) was discharged to 12.10v after 2A12 charging and it yielded better than 18 hours of discharge time using the previously mentioned rate of ~0.5 amps. This battery has been cycled many times, so the Energenx chargers do maintain battery integrity and Ah capacity! Both of the original Primary batteries are still in use with this SSG.

              It has been recommended by JB that these batteries can be brought back to useful service and performance by fully discharging to 0.0v and then recharging with a normal charger. This procedure was done once with no real impact, however Tom C. has noted in another thread that several cycles of charge and discharge with a 2A12 are required to bring matters back to normal. Something to try and added to the ever growing list!

              All the above is an initial foray into the weird and fascinating world of the SSG and Radiant energy. It is not complete or definitive, just a simple starting point. Others may have different opinions or methods - my observations are based on fact and repeatable results.

              The adventure continues,
              Yaro

              Comment


              • #8
                @all
                Guy thanks for your suggestions, positive comments are always welcome.

                Tom thanks for the url on the electronic Hydrometer - looks to be a worthwhile instrument. Always learning when I hang out with you guys!

                Branch - nice to hear from you - your battery voltage is pretty low, do a hydrometer read on each cell and see if one or two are weak; must be more capacity in there or it has seriously deteriorated. As you speculated perhaps more kick is required for charging. I have a couple of those 150 Ah monsters - using a 10A12 to charge; one is sitting at 12.55v and the other is still in salvage mode with one weak cell, but it is getting better...

                Yaro
                Yaro

                "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

                Comment


                • #9
                  Not to diminish all of the hard work you guys put in but I think you concentrate on some of the wrong things some times.

                  Voltage is relative to input. 15.3 is considered the norm but every machine can run differently which throws hard numbers out the window. You should chart the curve. The same battery can be made to top at 15v, or 16, or even 18v depending on the force applied.

                  I don't know why this is not better understood by many but I suspect it is because of all the fixed resistor builds that people do not see it. I'm not necessarily saying this is the case with your runs Yaro but people need to understand that 15.3 on a machine running at say 1A may not be the same charge level as one running at 1.5A. You guys can try it for yourselves simply put a pot in and watch thebattery behavior at different levels.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I did a crap job of trying to describe this a little while back: http://www.energyscienceforum.com/sh...ll=1#post15768

                    But yeah, the more current you push on the input side the higher the voltage needed to top the charge battery typically. This helped me begin to see what JB was saying when he stated the machine is "not about pushing current". I have done runs where the curve showed the same battery top at 14.8V using almost no current (high series resistance) and others pushing current where the topping event was up near 16V.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      BobZ,

                      Exactly one my points. Just documenting and sharing the progression in this beginner's level of understanding of the entire charging process and impacts on the charge battery - it is not in a book for easy reference.

                      You are right, in that at times, some of us appear to concentrate on seemingly meaningless issues - but hey, these diversions can be challenging and increase the body of personal knowledge. The change in charge battery performance over time has been an irritant and vexing question to many new experimenters. My observations are just a simple effort to look at this issue and bring it out.

                      Enough, back to the wheel and Common Ground mode. There is a lot of territory to be explored yet to get up to SG level of apprentice...

                      Appreciate your comments, informative threads and dedication,
                      Yaro
                      Yaro

                      "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Hi Yaro,
                        It was late when I posted that comment and I had just discovered your thread here so I had read all of your report at once. In going back I see that you were saying that, sorry to butt in.

                        James thanks for pointing that out, I knew this had been discussed and I think that was why I sort of had a knee-jerk reaction.

                        So here is something useful to consider.....

                        Be careful guys of just running tests over and over and over with the same discharge levels under the same loads. The batteries can develop issues. Once and awhile run a real load or at least change your discharge rate. It's similar to a memory effect on the old Ni-CD cells but not exactly. I don't want to go over it all but in basic terms the batteries like a little variance once and awhile, especially the starter batteries like the little garden ones.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          James,

                          Appreciate your comment and the link. Actually that thread is one of my favorites with the interplay between BobZ and Pat. It is in that thread that BobZ gets into the battery charging voltages and amps in a lot of detail. Nice!

                          Thanks,
                          Yaro
                          Yaro

                          "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            An irrelevant update, perhaps...

                            Being late April I was forced to take one of my SSG charge batteries (oldest one) for garden and summer use in one of my garden tractors. The tractor smarts (LEDs) said that the battery was dead (red zone). Duh! Turned the start key and cranked the puppy - no problem, mind you that the temps are in the 30's and there was no problem cranking the 22hp motor. Essentially, the much charged SSG battery is still very gutsy and useful. It will be run through the entire summer (ha, in Vermont it is only two weeks) and into fall. Tractor is used for just about everything - wood, dirt, trash and stone. The SSG charge battery still lives and is useful despite the challenges of radiant energy.

                            Best to all,
                            Yaro
                            Yaro

                            "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Continuation of Data on Charge Battery performance

                              Hello fellow experimenters,

                              Several months have passed since my last post on the Charge battery degradation experienced from continuous SSG Mode 1 (Radiant) charging and discharging. There is no Cap discharge circuit on this configuration at our lab. Several items of interest on this subject are below:

                              The Charge battery (one of two identical units) put into my Lawn tractor early spring after a long series of SSG testing continues to start the machine even though the tractor battery LED shows it to be challenged in the Red zone. The actual voltage of the battery is 12.36 volts after a day of rest in the tractor after mowing. Irrespective of the voltage value this battery will crank and start the 24hp mower without issue.

                              The other Charge battery had been load tested at about 4.0 AH back (original new value at 9.5 Ah) in early March 2015 and has been subjected or tortured, if you will, to numerous Charge/Discharge cycles during CG Mode of operation (No cap dump circuit here). Well, the results from the last load tests indicate that this battery, discharged at the original C20 rate of 0.47v, is pretty much beyond its useful service life. Bear in mind that this battery has been in the SSG Charge position for well over 100 cycles since Nov 2013. Its current capacity based on two recent and separate next day tests is at 2.04 amp hours based on a discharge rate of 0.47 Ah down to 12.09v. Done with this puppy...

                              More good news... The two parallel Primary batteries used with the SSG CG Mode (no cap discharge) testing have noticeably declined in Ah capacity over the past while since Dec 2014. The last load test (Dec 2014) on the weaker of the two LABs yielded about 9.25 Ah using C20 rate of 0.47Ah - actually very close to the original conditioning capacity when loaded down to 12.09v. The most recent load test on these LAB batts two days ago was disappointing. Three separate tests were run after being charged up by the Solar Tracker to 15.3 volts. In the first test one battery was discharge down to 12.09v at a 0.47Ah rate yielding 8.06Ah, while the other battery was discharged at a 0.68Ah rate yielding 8.12Ah - very balanced condition. The next test recharged both batteries in parallel to 15.3v and after a 12 hour rest period load tested in parallel down to 12.09v at a 1.01Ah rate. The result here was 8.2AH - again very close agreement.

                              In essence the Primary batteries have lost better than 50% of their last tested capacity (Dec 2014) using the CG mode and some Mode 1 operation. What gives you say?

                              This question was posed to JB at the conference - his quick remark was that Radiant mode was for battery rejuvenation only. The conversation was terminated by others butting in and any further interaction here was lost in the shuffle. Never had the opportunity to fully clarify this with JB.

                              In hindsight and reading all the relevant information does point at Radiant mode as a special process used for battery rejuvenation. So I am done with any prolonged COP testing in Radiant mode with new LABs based on experience of many, many full scale Charge and Discharge tests. Same applies to the Primary batteries.

                              Of course, all the above is not definitive - 4 samples cycled more than a 100 times, not enough for a single experimenter. However the above diminishment of charge capacity has been noted by other experimenters, some very disappointed. Indeed, it is entirely possible that this capacity loss is a function of the battery physically degrading or just aging. However, this experimenter has stopped the SSG tests and is in the process of adding a comparator before installing new batteries; only then will the testing restart.

                              As usual questions and comments are always welcome! Thanks for your attention.

                              Been there, done that,
                              Yaro
                              Last edited by Yaro1776; 07-24-2015, 03:39 AM. Reason: Syntax and spelling; add bold and fix typo
                              Yaro

                              "The Universe is under no obligation to make sense to you." -Neil Degrasse Tyson

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