Maximum coil size?

[Tom C]

Hi Tom-

Isn't it true though that you could power a small water pump pretty much indefinitely from the mechanical of the wheel? That's what I'm working towards. It's small yes, but being able to pump water is pretty huge when it comes to the things you can do with it.

My goal personally is to pump the water up high, have gravity bring it back down through a trompe, and make my own free compressed air that I can use to power compressed air appliances.

Does that sound like a realistic goal with the SG, or am I on the wrong track as well?

Branch

there is lots you can do with the mechanical of the SG but there is loss in any system. you are going to pump a very small amount of water. its heavy and you will need 15 feet of head to do any meaningful work. hydro power to compress air is a weight calculation problem. air is a spring the more you compress the harder it is to compress.Compressor Power Calculations - Industrial Professionals - Cheresources.com Community and Force Equations Formulas Physics Calculator Tom C

[James Milner]

Ok, I acknowledge that cap dumps solve much of the impedance issues,nevertheless I would appreciate understanding the impedance issue more completely.
I've looking into the impedance measuring processes and there is a discrepancy depending whether the testing is done via DC testing or AC testing. Not much but but 50% variance is still significant when we are talking about even a few ohm in such large sytems!
Being that our batteries are pulsing I'm suspecting that the most appropriate method would be AC impedance testing at or very close to the running RPM of the wheel multiplied by the magnets present to give a set frequency. For me that would be 119RPM/60 x 20 Mags = 39hz.
So am I looking at testing my batteries at 39hz to test for its impedance in ohms and get my total coil(s) impedance as close as I can to this value?
Is this what John Bedini means by matching the impedance? OR have I really got my understanding muddled?

[John_Koorn]

I've always thought that impedance matching refers more to matching the impedance of the coil to the primary battery.

Basically the closer the impedance between the two, the better the power transfer, the better the radiant enters the circuit.

honestly I have no idea how the impedance of the charge battery relates to a high voltage, low current spike. All I know is it charges batteries. It's the difference of potential.

John K.

[James Milner]

Thanks John,
So impedance matching is at the front end?
So how does that work with a single bifilar SG. Smaller battery better or larger? Assuming their impedances are proportional to size.
Has John Bedini ever mentioned any testing parameters to help tune the SG? AC or DC on the primary battery. The system pulses from that end too.

My thinking is that smaller SG's would work better on smaller batteries with higher impedance and the same would be true of larger multicoil SGs being better for larger batteries banks of paralleled batteries(to further lower impedance).
Or do I go for the biggest battery I can on the front end because the impedance is lower and is more likely to allow a better power transfer into the system simply because of the higher longer term potential of the system.
Or have I gone too far?

[Tom C]

ok guys,

you already know what the coil looks like, the 10 coil is 18 awg 4 strands plus trigger, designed to run at 24 VOLTS. the single SG 20 awg is 7 strands plus trigger running at 12 volts. a rotored SG runs in a rather slow rpm range say 200 to 750 rpm. you already have the coil configurations. you ALREADY KNOW WHAT COIL TO BUILD. the core diameter and wire length determines your inductance. measure those coils at whatever rpm you are running that is the impedance. its pulsed DC. so with the right frequency measured at DC. you want to lower impedance add coils in parallel. small machines like the cap dump, but so do big ones, as many caps as needed to move the ions in the battery. with the cap dump the impedance is matched by the capacitor. the cap dump is an LC circuit with the battery. the coil is an LC circuit with the primary. you already know what the single coil SG is designed to charge right? what size batteries are those? as far as the pulse is concerned the information in the spike cannot be measured it has no mass.

Tom C

[Tom C]

now heres something. ralphs 6 coil measured 9 to one charge to discharge, on the bench in the shop, joules in and out. 6 charge cycles. 18 awg coils, 12 volts scalar north magnets aluminum rotor. a copy of JB's 6 coil (which was not scalar north) built from pictures on the internet. les kraut's machine is the same thing. 18 awg coils.... no cap pulser on ralphs straight to the battery. it was a single automotive starter battery, in and out. the primary was alum but that makes no difference joules out is joules out. a 6 coil impedance will be low with that size wire.

Tom C

[ZPDM]

ok guys,

you already know what the coil looks like, the 10 coil is 18 awg 4 strands plus trigger, designed to run at 24 VOLTS. the single SG 20 awg is 7 strands plus trigger running at 12 volts. a rotored SG runs in a rather slow rpm range say 200 to 750 rpm. you already have the coil configurations. you ALREADY KNOW WHAT COIL TO BUILD. the core diameter and wire length determines your inductance. measure those coils at whatever rpm you are running that is the impedance. its pulsed DC. so with the right frequency measured at DC. you want to lower impedance add coils in parallel. small machines like the cap dump, but so do big ones, as many caps as needed to move the ions in the battery. with the cap dump the impedance is matched by the capacitor. the cap dump is an LC circuit with the battery. the coil is an LC circuit with the primary. you already know what the single coil SG is designed to charge right? what size batteries are those? as far as the pulse is concerned the information in the spike cannot be measured it has no mass.

Tom C

Tom,

I'll ask a number of questions and if you get to any or all it will be much appreciated. First when you are talking about 4 or 7 strand coils do these have to be litzed or is it just better if they are? I tried making a four stranded litz wire, not easy. While I should probably go back to the sort of specifications that have been given, I'll just say right now I am running a small Bedini/Fredreich kit coil off a 6 volt 1.2 aH SLAB. I was thinking maybe 4 strands of 28 or 30 gauge wire to fill the coil does that sound reasonable? Should I shoot for a specific resistance? I really don't understand impedance matching so I am trying to just get in the right ballpark. Once I am then I might shell out for some Litz wire.

One last off topic question, I was looking over a document I downloaded by a Patrick Kelly and he mentions an example of putting a magnet in line with a transformer. I could swear I saw something with Bedini having done this but can't find it again. So I'm thinking of taking a dremel to a torroidal jewel thief to put a magnet in there but am just curious if you heard anything about this and/or if John has done anything like this?

Thanks
Paul

[min2oly]

now heres something. ralphs 6 coil measured 9 to one charge to discharge, on the bench in the shop, joules in and out. 6 charge cycles. 18 awg coils, 12 volts scalar north magnets aluminum rotor. a copy of JB's 6 coil (which was not scalar north) built from pictures on the internet. les kraut's machine is the same thing. 18 awg coils.... no cap pulser on ralphs straight to the battery. it was a single automotive starter battery, in and out. the primary was alum but that makes no difference joules out is joules out. a 6 coil impedance will be low with that size wire.

Tom C

Hi Tom,
while I've not ever converted a large 12 volt FLAB to Alum, I have converted a couple of small 6 volt FLAB's. After conversion and several charges - impedance is very high.

Judging from JB's charts alone, not even looking at my own data, I can see that it is extremely difficult to even measure the real joules out of the Alum battery, unless he used a scope on the front to measure - I never heard that he did. I can only go by what he reports to be true. I have confirmed so much of what he says to be true, I would not doubt him.

So perhaps there is more to be said about high impedance on the front.

On the theme of this thread, I'm currently running 10lbs of 18awg 3 mjl's SS SSG w/ CPD mod 2x12 volt 3.6Ah configured 24V on the front and 2x12 volt 25 and 30Ah configured 24V on the back. 1.1Amp draw. Nothing more than 4 degrees above room temp. I'm on my 3rd run. This one charges to 30 volts pretty darn fast 3.5 hours - after full discharge of course. Waiting for the runs to smooth out before I'll be able to see what the actual COP numbers are.


-KR
Patrick

[Tom C]

Tom,

I'll ask a number of questions and if you get to any or all it will be much appreciated. First when you are talking about 4 or 7 strand coils do these have to be litzed or is it just better if they are? I tried making a four stranded litz wire, not easy. While I should probably go back to the sort of specifications that have been given, I'll just say right now I am running a small Bedini/Fredreich kit coil off a 6 volt 1.2 aH SLAB. I was thinking maybe 4 strands of 28 or 30 gauge wire to fill the coil does that sound reasonable? Should I shoot for a specific resistance? I really don't understand impedance matching so I am trying to just get in the right ballpark. Once I am then I might shell out for some Litz wire.

One last off topic question, I was looking over a document I downloaded by a Patrick Kelly and he mentions an example of putting a magnet in line with a transformer. I could swear I saw something with Bedini having done this but can't find it again. So I'm thinking of taking a dremel to a torroidal jewel thief to put a magnet in there but am just curious if you heard anything about this and/or if John has done anything like this?

Thanks
Paul

1- litzing makes better mutual inductance, I can litz coils for you if you want we have them for sale at teslagenx.
2- tiny machines with tiny parts.... what do you want to do? that little 3 pole charges little batteries, small currents, small calculations. good for experimenting, but I Gave mine to JB (rick never gave him one) so he could drive it. he said the rotor was wrong, magnets wrong, coils and coil cores too small to do any real work. good for proof of concept but does not even meet the parameters JB laid out. build a bike wheel...

[Tom C]

Hi Tom,
while I've not ever converted a large 12 volt FLAB to Alum, I have converted a couple of small 6 volt FLAB's. After conversion and several charges - impedance is very high.

Judging from JB's charts alone, not even looking at my own data, I can see that it is extremely difficult to even measure the real joules out of the Alum battery, unless he used a scope on the front to measure - I never heard that he did. I can only go by what he reports to be true. I have confirmed so much of what he says to be true, I would not doubt him.

So perhaps there is more to be said about high impedance on the front.

On the theme of this thread, I'm currently running 10lbs of 18awg 3 mjl's SS SSG w/ CPD mod 2x12 volt 3.6Ah configured 24V on the front and 2x12 volt 25 and 30Ah configured 24V on the back. 1.1Amp draw. Nothing more than 4 degrees above room temp. I'm on my 3rd run. This one charges to 30 volts pretty darn fast 3.5 hours - after full discharge of course. Waiting for the runs to smooth out before I'll be able to see what the actual COP numbers are.


-KR
Patrick

can you slow it down a bit? put a tesla node on the trigger that will take the heat out of it, and turn it into charging maybe... cant hurt to try.... also switch which battery is first in the charge string see if that drops the temp. interested to see how many batteries you can charge on the back with one charge on the front. could you tell us what your charge/discharge voltages are just for grins?

Tom C

Tom C

[Tom C]

Okay now I have some answers, as it has been right under my nose, but like i said Tom C. my formal training is lacking so i need this LC reminder sometimes. L or inductor referring to coils and C is capacitance of the run battery. I got that. And I can formula until the cows come home.

Next you point out how ions need to be moved into the charging battery so cap dump capacitors need to be added into the equation.

First let us go back to the run battery and focus of the fact you point out this relationship of L C. In the run battery we all should know by now that with John K.'s sniffer coil, ringing can be seen all over it. So it "stands" to reason that the matching here might relate to setting up a standing wave or circuit that it ringing til my wife screems "What the heck is that noise"??

Now we move to the added complication of more caps to another set of batteries that are caps.

Well I'm I drowning in the math yet? I have something to think on Tom C.

Then RS also gave us a small calculation of resistances in coils to match the output impedance of the charging batteries like John B states.

So I will somehow marry the two ideas, as they all go together, and like John B said that if we are trying to do all of these calculations without an engineering degree "GOD HELP YOU"

Thanks guys for getting my thoughts something to crunch.

Mike (Dust Bowl)

so here is the thing, a solar panel open circuit voltage to a charge controller to a smoothing cap across the outut of the charge controoler to the SG, then you are cop of infinity..... like a lazy 8!! when I was at the hayden conference John said to me, so "what you gonna do" I said "I am gonna get me a couple of solar panels and light my house", he said "yup me too" ... that was that. we were speaking about his first tesla solar amp which is another way of doing the SAME things he does with the monopole, amplification of potential using switching.

Tom C

[Tom C]

like this

[min2oly]

can you slow it down a bit? put a tesla node on the trigger that will take the heat out of it, and turn it into charging maybe... cant hurt to try.... also switch which battery is first in the charge string see if that drops the temp. interested to see how many batteries you can charge on the back with one charge on the front. could you tell us what your charge/discharge voltages are just for grins?

Tom C

Tom C

I think the 4 degrees is w/in tolerance - no
I can run it much cooler but it takes longer to charge. Remember, I am using 10 POUNDS of 18 AWG w/ 3 transistors. I'll try switching the charge bats and see if it improves.

My front end fully charged on wall wart to 30V - charges my C20 discharged to 23.5V back to 30V on one cycle - meaning my front end is fully discharged by the time the charge bats get to 30V.
4 cycles now.

Below is the most informative vid I ever saw on choke/node inline w/ the trigger.
keep in mind the build is not to spec, he uses neos etc... but IMHO it does a good informative job w/ some of what is going on.

I know - add more batteries on the back - best advice ever!
Kind Regards,
Patrick

[Tom C]

Tom C. Wrote:

"put a tesla node on the trigger"

I have been working with what I know to be tesla nodes using coils in series with my solid state energizer.

For me to create a node would mean 20 turns of magwire then to capture this impulse I am FWBR (Full Wave Bridge Rectifying).

I know and have heard experimenters say that their transistor devices tend to heat up if the wire is to short or to long or different thickness.

So my question is do you think a tesla node coil put in series would sometimes solve this heating? Like putting a resistor in the trigger does it limits the current and also changes the frec's.

it seems like a small Tesla node coil in series with the trigger would not alter the existing operation.

Has one of these coils called a Tesla node installed in the triggering portion of the energizer helped to eliminating heating?

I am taking out the time to type this out so myself and other understand this very brief dialog.

Thanks Tom C. for your expertise.

Regards

Mike

Mike you know what an inductor does, you know what a bridge rectifier does... when you put them together you get a node. I would encourage you to try one. as with all inductors (chokes) they can be wound differently and it will be different for EVERY BUILD.... I would not have recommended it if it did not make a difference... sometimes Tom C

[Tom C]

I think the 4 degrees is w/in tolerance - no
I can run it much cooler but it takes longer to charge. Remember, I am using 10 POUNDS of 18 AWG w/ 3 transistors. I'll try switching the charge bats and see if it improves.

My front end fully charged on wall wart to 30V - charges my C20 discharged to 23.5V back to 30V on one cycle - meaning my front end is fully discharged by the time the charge bats get to 30V.
4 cycles now.

Below is the most informative vid I ever saw on choke/node inline w/ the trigger.
keep in mind the build is not to spec, he uses neos etc... but IMHO it does a good informative job w/ some of what is going on.

I know - add more batteries on the back - best advice ever!
Kind Regards,
Patrick

yea that's from lee he does good work, his inductor has no bridge... Tom C