Swapping source and charge batteries

[radiant]

I've been reading around the place and have also heard JB in some of his videos saying you can't swap source and charge batteries...then in other videos does that very thing...

What is the reasoning behind this?

[Dave Wing]

Hi radiant,

I cannot speak for John Bedini but I will put in my two cents in...

The way I look at it is that the video, Energy From The Vacuum 2 was simply demonstrating that the machine could swap the batteries if you so desired and you knew what you were doing.

It was not mentioned in that video that you cannot swap the SSG charged battery to the front without loosing time in the form of battery capacity. So it was then addressed in Inside Radiant Energy Part 6... that the machine will lose run time each time the swap is performed, which translates into a very unreasonably fast primary battery discharge rate of the newly charged SSG secondary battery that was freshly swapped to the front end to become the powering battery. This problem could be eliminated if you were to provide a certain rest period of many hours or even a day or two before swapping the fresh charged SSG charged battery to the primary position. A solution to this problem is found below.

In Part 7 Tesla's Impulse Technology you will find the reason why you cannot swap the batteries. When the SSG charges a battery with a bridge rectifier or single diode you get straight, unconverted, negative energy sent into the charge battery, it is a far different form of energy from the conventional positive type we are all familiar with. So that said... How do we convert this negative energy into a positive form we can immediatly use? You must use a simple capacitor after the bridge rectifier or diode, charge the capacitor and dump it to the charge battery. This can be done here:

http://www.energyscienceforum.com/be...discharge.html

http://www.energyscienceforum.com/be...-cap-dump.html

And of course there are many other ways to do this as well... John bedini and many others have brought forward this document below many times, written by Thomas Bearden. It is a excellent source of information.

http://www.cheniere.org/misc/battery%20poppers.htm

I would suggest if you or any others have not already done so, order the Energy From The Vacuum videos and books, as they are very informative and supply a vast amount of very useful, indispensable information that will help maximize your learning curve.

Hope this helps.

Dave Wing

[radiant]

Hi Dave

First off thanks for the detailed reply. I see you have been thinking about this too...at some point.

Yes I have watched the videos and hence the confusion....because my testing shows there is no issues in swapping over...to get an "extended run time" of the system (aka perpetual)

Now you say that the "When the SSG charges a battery with a bridge rectifier or single diode you get straight, unconverted, negative energy sent into the charge battery, it is a far different form of energy from the conventional positive type we are all familiar with. So that said... How do we convert this negative energy into a positive form we can immediatly use?"

Well its not really that is it? Its the electrochemical process in the battery that is doing the Radiant conversion (longitudinal to transverse) inside the battery to create ion flow.
So when that charge battery is disconnected from the charger and used, the energy output from that battery SHOULD be the same output as a battery charged conventionally....

Now the question begs to be asked, is a radiantly charged battery that is now capable of sustaining a load ALSO capable of running an SG circuit? Of course right....

Does it need a rest? Probably not....in one of those videos I recall hearing JB say if you let a radiant charged battery sit around it will lose its charge faster than a conventionally charge one...
Dont quote me but its a faint recollection of sorts...if you can confirm...I've noticed a radiant charged battery (after conditioning) tends to give best COP when used immediately....than waiting around for hours...
that just could very well be a naughty battery too...or a combination of both....

In JB's demo of the 2000Ah(?) banks charged with the 10 coiler and the 2kW resistive load. He is switching back and forth there isnt he? In fact no resting at all....

In Cap dumping, the battery is being charged with a combination of radiant and current....because the cap is now where the longitudinal to transverse conversion is going on....at a much faster rate....
and because at the switch interval the charge batt is connected directly to the power circuit it is also getting a radiant zap...

Thinking out loud here...

[Dave Wing]

First off thanks for the detailed reply. I see you have been thinking about this too...at some point.

Yes I have watched the videos and hence the confusion....because my testing shows there is no issues in swapping over...to get an "extended run time" of the system (aka perpetual)

Now you say that the "When the SSG charges a battery with a bridge rectifier or single diode you get straight, unconverted, negative energy sent into the charge battery, it is a far different form of energy from the conventional positive type we are all familiar with. So that said... How do we convert this negative energy into a positive form we can immediatly use?"

Well its not really that is it? Its the electrochemical process in the battery that is doing the Radiant conversion (longitudinal to transverse) inside the battery to create ion flow.
So when that charge battery is disconnected from the charger and used, the energy output from that battery SHOULD be the same output as a battery charged conventionally....

Now the question begs to be asked, is a radiantly charged battery that is now capable of sustaining a load ALSO capable of running an SG circuit? Of course right....

The point is and perhaps I did not make it very clear, is that the freshly charged SSG battery, without the cap dump is very capable of running loads, lights, inverters, motors etc. You will see the Amp hours being given from the battery and get good results with these types of loads, you should see up to 110% capacity on a conditioned battery. But this freshly charged SSG battery cannot be taken immediately off of the back end and put on the front end to power the SSG and still get the same 110% capacity in run time... it will fall quite a bit short of its normal 110% capacity.

I forgot to mention another way to be able to swap the batteries directly back to front, without a cap dump and that is use a separate stand alone trigger that is removed from the power windings.

Does it need a rest? Probably not....in one of those videos I recall hearing JB say if you let a radiant charged battery sit around it will lose its charge faster than a conventionally charge one...

I disagee all my research proves other wise...

Dont quote me but its a faint recollection of sorts...if you can confirm...I've noticed a radiant charged battery (after conditioning) tends to give best COP when used immediately....than waiting around for hours...

I agree, but repetitive use like this without some rest between charge and discharge cycles could ultimately harm your batteries plate material. I have seen it done after many cycles of charging and direct loading.

that just could very well be a naughty battery too...or a combination of both....

In JB's demo of the 2000Ah(?) banks charged with the 10 coiler and the 2kW resistive load. He is switching back and forth there isnt he? In fact no resting at all....

I think it was again done for demonstration purposes only.

In Cap dumping, the battery is being charged with a combination of radiant and current....because the cap is now where the longitudinal to transverse conversion is going on....at a much faster rate....
and because at the switch interval the charge batt is connected directly to the power circuit it is also getting a radiant zap...

Thinking out loud here...

Dave Wing

[alfinip2000]

Dave,your thoght enlightmnet me..thx mate...i've searching and trying to understand about separate trigger,so it can be swap (monopole master class 2)..am curious
1.if it separate,for 10 coiler machibe,do it still need 150 feet long,or feel the spool (abt 600feet)?
2.how the schematic of it(diffrent tyranis)?
TIA..
Alfin..
Ps:sorry for the english

[Dave Wing]

Dave,your thoght enlightmnet me..thx mate...i've searching and trying to understand about separate trigger,so it can be swap (monopole master class 2)..am curious
1.if it separate,for 10 coiler machibe,do it still need 150 feet long,or feel the spool (abt 600feet)?
2.how the schematic of it(diffrent tyranis)?
TIA..
Alfin..
Ps:sorry for the english

I too learned this in Part 25- Bedini Monopole Master Class 2- Wind Power And Alternatives... Part 24 was great as well.

In my research I have only worked with this on a small scale, single transistor SSG and have not done multiple transistors hooked to a single segregated trigger coil, so I cannot comment much on this... I will say tuning is quite a bit different than what I was used to, when compared to the tuning of the combined trigger/ power coil and I don't think I fully figured out everything about this circuit configuration either... so you may be on your own with this one. Maybe someone else will add their experiences and answer your question better than I have... Sorry.

Dave Wing

[Tom C]

Dave,your thoght enlightmnet me..thx mate...i've searching and trying to understand about separate trigger,so it can be swap (monopole master class 2)..am curious
1.if it separate,for 10 coiler machibe,do it still need 150 feet long,or feel the spool (abt 600feet)?
2.how the schematic of it(diffrent tyranis)?
TIA..
Alfin..
Ps:sorry for the english

seperate trigger means one not powered by the monopole, or its batteries, either a hall switch or an opto, or a magnetic reed.

Tom C

[alfinip2000]

Dave wing,Tom C..thx for the info,am working on my 10 coiler..am better start to test it on like usual way,charge sec batt with ssg,and charge pri batt with inverter or solar..later on,advenrure with cap dump and separare tiger.
cheers,
Alfin

[Rob_Esq]

I forgot to mention another way to be able to swap the batteries directly back to front, without a cap dump and that is use a separate stand alone trigger that is removed from the power windings.

Hi Dave. How does this work then? Rob

[radiant]

[QUOTE=Dave Wing;3618]But this freshly charged SSG battery cannot be taken immediately off of the back end and put on the front end to power the SSG and still get the same 110% capacity in run time... it will fall quite a bit short of its normal 110% capacity.

Hi Dave thanks for the reply. All good points.

How does the source of the trigger affect this behaviour? (as asked by Rob above...sort of)

Also, something to ponder, have you tried this: Would the same thing happen if that freshly charged SSG battery was used to run a SECOND separate SSG?

Is it specific to the SSG circuit it is charged by or is it just any SSG?

I must admit I cycle the batteries but the SG is always powered through an inverter....so I have not noticed that effect as the source batteries are never directly in the circuit....

[Dave Wing]

Poster by mistake.

[Dave Wing]

Alfin,

Your right on track with your comments, all should follow your example get the machine running like the way it was designed, then experiment. John Bedini says we are to build it...

@ All,

First let answer a few questions, Magnetic saturation is not a problem if your using the correct magnets.
The next thing is the current in the machine must be set to minimum. This machine must be set in the top portion of the bell curve as has been discussed before. The SG is based on the 1984 book without the DC Motor or the energizer attached. This is all in one machine. the dc motor part is pulsed from the magnets the recovery is a spike of high potential to the secondary battery. The two batteries are split in the circuit to make it easy to tune. If you want to just use one battery you must use capacitor discharge at double the battery voltage and the motor section must be in the off position when the discharge occurs. You can find many was to do this type of energizer. The most important thing is to not waste much energy in the primary circuits unless you have designed the machine to run a different way and then your on your own. The shaft power of the machine is around 23% so do something with it or add it into your COP equation as the energy must be counted, run a fan. The first toy you ever had than captures the wasted energy and gives mechanical power to do something with along with charging another battery. If the machine is balanced correctly your COP will be 1 or better. You must count everything in the system. If your looking with current meters you will see the primary but the secondary is much different to measure as not much current is found. The Battery does not care what charges it as long as the potential is found at it's terminals. The machine in the Patent was built to charge batteries as it was always a battery charger based on Tom Bearden's theories on battery back popping with a high potential. When this is done the battery changes and it becomes very hard to charge with a conventional charger, this is seen by the heat in the battery. The Energizer is equivalent to a magneto charging system. Before you attempt to do this work you must study what Magnetos do to batteries and how they charge batteries. If your looking for current with the SG machine it's not designed to do that. Watch The video I post. Look on Tom Bearden's web site on the simple Free Energy Motor Part 4

Les K,
That is correct, it does make a difference to follow directions, everybody must remember I have been building SG machines since the mid 70's. Things in this machine must be matched for it to perform properly. When I say 130 feet of wire that is what I mean and not one inch more. Transistors also must be matched for performance. 21 magnets works out to be the best on the bike wheel. Batteries must also be checked to make sure they will float at 16 volts without damage. Les you can make a network with a capacitor to convert the radiant spike on the back battery so you can trade batteries if you want without the cap dump. Good advise Les in what your saying.

@all The BIKE Wheel Energizer,
This should be hopping here to understand what is going on, Start over with a simple SG most of you already have the simple setup. Take 7 number 20 wires and a 23 trigger wire stretch them out for 130 feet twist the wires clockwise and the spacing should be 3/4 of an inch on the twist, and then wind the wires clockwise on the spool, take 21 magnets north pole facing out around the wheel. make the circuit as I say, do not alter anything because you know better. The spacing on the wheel to the coil should be 3/8 of an inch gap. Do this simple at first as an SG use the discharge circuit second until the capacitor is at 31 volts, clip leads will work but you will lose current in the dump voltage. mount the cap as close to the circuit board as you can keeping losses to minimum. Every wire is an inductor with this current. The SG circuit is, 470 ohms on each base with a 12 ohm resistor in place of the light bulb in the circuit, use the MJL21194 transistor, do not replace it, use 1N4007 diodes . Again, "do not change anything" Run the machine with garden batteries. Take one amp hour out of the secondary battery, then run the machine and watch the time it takes to put it back, it should only take hour to do that, if not you have crap batteries at both ends. To smooth the primary current use a 16000 Uf cap at the input.
@Vallentin,
Nothing to slam your head agents the wall for, the circuit is straight forward in how it is working, On the SG the Ramp is the number of magnets around the wheel, and the fets are opto coupled, it should not be necessary to pull them up to the supply voltage the important thing is turning them off and the correct series resistor in the gates, the drivers should be connected to the collectors and the potential should give the correct voltage. Matching everything is very important, the same for the SG.

@All,
Ralph brought the 6 coil machine to the conference, I do not practice any kind of Voodoo with the Machines I have built. Ralph's machine was not properly tuned, so I took it upon myself to go over how to tune the machine in front of everybody standing around. The magnets are arranged that way to form a sharp pulse and that is to limit the current on the machine. The machine will run the fastest when it is tuned. You must be willing to spend a long time to tune it. This is not a machine that you just put together and expect results. I have never built a machine that was drawing on large amounts of current in the primary circuit, the simple fact is when the current appears most of everything is wasted in heat and the Radiant in the spike goes away. The next important thing is to size the battery for the machine, little batteries will not do it. I see people using small gel batteries thinking that they can see this happen fast, wrong. Everything must be in balance, transistors, resistors. If one transistor is getting very hot it is not matched. Magnets are very important, No NEO magnets just because you think that is better, it's not. If you saturate the core material then to break away you must supply gobs of current in the system, if you do that you will not be able to do a COP of 1, you must do that first. When calculating the power of the machine you must take everything into account including the mechanical that you got for free, 23% or more. When everything is in balance the primary will go down and the secondary will go up at the same rate. The Energizer was made to charge batteries and give a small mechanical power output for running fans or small geared water pumps, all that you must count as energy.
So if you look at this as a Toy, it is the first toy where you have captured all the wasted energy for a second battery to use.
Floyde Sweet is not part of this machine.

Oily,

It would be great to list the books from the 50's but it would take me forever. I only mention the Boy Electrician because that is where I started with batteries and generators, radio and Tesla Coils. I did not grow up with any money in my life, we had nothing. And were are about to have nothing again the way Fed is operating. When we go down so does Europe. It is really scary when you ask a pharmacist for PH tape and they do not know what that is or any of the young people in the store. They have no Idea what is going to happen to them. Electricity has been something that makes life easier, that is about to change, the smart meters, and little controllers. It's on the news. If most of them did not have a computer to make change they would not know what to do, scary ignored by most as being funny, it's not. The schools have been dumb downed for years now, when your asking to many questions and not following all the sheep, your given drugs and put in special classes for re-programming, you never get out of that. Yes the old books are very real and full of information. Most of the books have been destroyed and burned so nothing is left. No information no problems from the masses. The people here have a quest to learn something about energy and this is just one of many things that can be explored here. This is the Reason Tesla was stopped, he was about to release that world of energy.
Anybody could have tapped and it, it would have been understood, this is how you make energy. Alum Batteries were known back then but they did not wear out, the lead acid did and that is money over, and over again. My parents could not give me an education I had to do it myself and I can only try to explain what I have done with energy here. I learn along with everybody here, with the experiments. Yes, Dancing With The Stars is the way, with moron judges, that is America, keep them blind and stupid and not let them see what were are doing to them. My rant is over. But think about your car now it can be shut down anytime they want to take it away from you. You do not own anything, not even your life or your children.

Dave Wing

[Dave Wing]

Hi Dave thanks for the reply. All good points.

How does the source of the trigger affect this behaviour? (as asked by Rob above...sort of) I do not know,but I would like to know.

Also, something to ponder, have you tried this: Would the same thing happen if that freshly charged SSG battery was used to run a SECOND separate SSG? No I have not and I do not know. Perhaps your could try it and let us know.

Is it specific to the SSG circuit it is charged by or is it just any SSG? Try and let us know the results.

I must admit I cycle the batteries but the SG is always powered through an inverter....so I have not noticed that effect as the source batteries are never directly in the circuit....[/QUOTE] Yes excellent, what is your cop of the machine in this configuration. Or please share some of your findings. With the inverter, how much in the form of losses are you seeing? Have you thought about factoring in your mechanical shaft energy?

Dave Wing

[bluestix]

Alfin,

Your right on track with your comments, all should follow your example get the machine running like the way it was designed, then experiment. John Bedini says we are to build it...

John mentions 'The Boy Electrician' in the quotes you posted.

For anyone interested the 1913 version can be downloaded here:

Public Domain Technical Books

Here is the actual pdf link:

http://danielwebb.us/projects/pd_tec...lectrician.pdf

The 1943 version:

http://rawfire.torche.com/~opcom/tbe...lectrician.pdf


John B, if you know of any other good books we should read please list them and I will find copies.

Thanks

[radiant]

es excellent, what is your cop of the machine in this configuration. Or please share some of your findings. With the inverter, how much in the form of losses are you seeing? Have you thought about factoring in your mechanical shaft energy?


Ok looks like I might have to do some testing. Btw I must mention Im using the "solid state" method so there are no mechanical shafts. My circuit in this application runs exactly 4.44kHz (when low) and 4.667kHz when approaching full charge.
The inverter is 90% efficient and does "other things" as well. Overall the COP is well over 4.0. The most I can get out of my 6 coiler (with 15 power coils) is 528Hz....and thats with 30V@0.5A input...

I've found great success in high COPs by using high voltage low current power sources in the charging side....

I will have to test to see what happens if I eliminate my inverter and start using the charged batteries directly....

Will report back soon...