Impedance matching

[forelle]

Hello everybody,
It's allways talked about that the coils should match the impedance of the battery,but how is this made?
I hope somebody can help.
Thanks

[Forrest]

Hi forelle, The impedance question I am sure of yet. Do not have your answer but do have some very good info to read thru. SSG_STARTERS_GUIDE-Two.pdf

This was good enough for me to put into book form. It might give you the clues you need to the answer.

bud

[Forrest]

Hi forelle,

NOTES ON BATTERIES AND COILS IMPEDANCE MATCHING
• Ideally the impedance of each coil should match the C20 rate for the batteries.
• As previously indicated, the small 7.0Ah gel cell types have a C20 rate of 0.28A. That is the
maximum discharge rate allowed under the C20 rule. The coil specified on Peswiki comes
under this value and thus is well suited for new users.
• Obviously larger batteries with higher C20 rates will support larger coils or those with heavier
gauge wire or more than one coil (for now stick with the one coil). As a quick rule of thumb,
Roamer has suggested to buy 100ft of 18AWG twin speaker cable from Radio Shack and
make the coil for larger batteries.
• Basically, bigger wire coil implies higher RPM and more current. Multiple smaller coils imply
higher RPM and less current draw per coil but more overall than just one coil (see notes
below).
• All this depends on your rotor, the number of magnets, etc… with regards to where the
‘sweet spot’ RPM and amperage is going to be for a given coil size or number of coils running
at that ‘sweet spot’ RPM.
• As a further example a coil or coils that draw 1 to 3 amps (as shown on a DMM), will charge
a deep cycle golf cart size battery bank. This amperage draw does not even get close to the
C20 rating of the battery bank, so that the rest of the charge in the battery can be used for
other loads at the same time as charging the other bank(s).

Bud

[Tom C]

Hi forelle,

NOTES ON BATTERIES AND COILS IMPEDANCE MATCHING
• Ideally the impedance of each coil should match the C20 rate for the batteries.
• As previously indicated, the small 7.0Ah gel cell types have a C20 rate of 0.28A. That is the
maximum discharge rate allowed under the C20 rule. The coil specified on Peswiki comes
under this value and thus is well suited for new users.
• Obviously larger batteries with higher C20 rates will support larger coils or those with heavier
gauge wire or more than one coil (for now stick with the one coil). As a quick rule of thumb,
Roamer has suggested to buy 100ft of 18AWG twin speaker cable from Radio Shack and
make the coil for larger batteries.
• Basically, bigger wire coil implies higher RPM and more current. Multiple smaller coils imply
higher RPM and less current draw per coil but more overall than just one coil (see notes
below).
• All this depends on your rotor, the number of magnets, etc… with regards to where the
‘sweet spot’ RPM and amperage is going to be for a given coil size or number of coils running
at that ‘sweet spot’ RPM.
• As a further example a coil or coils that draw 1 to 3 amps (as shown on a DMM), will charge
a deep cycle golf cart size battery bank. This amperage draw does not even get close to the
C20 rating of the battery bank, so that the rest of the charge in the battery can be used for
other loads at the same time as charging the other bank(s).

Bud

I have never heard of impedance matching the C20 rate........ can you explain a bit more what you mean by this? usually a batteries internal impedance is down in the milliohms and you match the coil with a cap dump on the output, as a cap has almost zero impedance.

Tom C

[RS_]

I have never heard of impedance matching the C20 rate........ can you explain a bit more what you mean by this? usually a batteries internal impedance is down in the milliohms and you match the coil with a cap dump on the output, as a cap has almost zero impedance.

Tom C

Hello,

Most of the text above is from the Beginners Guide that Rick F., Richard L. and I composed from various posts of JB's, Romers and various other sources in the very beginning of the SG and SSG builders groups, and was slowly updated over the years as new info became available.......

"NOTES ON BATTERIES AND COILS IMPEDANCE MATCHING
• Ideally the impedance of each coil should match the C20 rate for the batteries."

The above part is from Miki's edited version of that original beginners guide posted on the the SG group just before JB had Sterling shut the SG Yahoo group down.

on smaller SG/SSG's you need to match the SSG or SG current draw to the C20 rate of a given battery so that the SG/SSG Current draw is lower than that batterys C20 rate, NOT the impedance....

In a different but related concept, on the bigger muilty Strand, muilty Coil SSG units like mine, at 48 strands of 18ga at 120ft, when you take each strand in parallel, {from memory} that = approx 0.002 ohms, which = the approx internal resistance of a Large Battery like a golf cart battery. This is what is meant by matching the impedance's on a SSG energizer to the battery's, but the current draw of the muilty Strand muilty Coil SSG should be way, way lower than the C20 of that size battery........

to John K and Tom C. FYI
During the early days of Sterling A's. SG Yahoo forum, Miki was one of the worst critics of JB's work, then right at the end, he must have seen something, as he did a complete 180 and started promoting the tech, and did the edit of the guide and posted it, and that edited guide is what is still on the SG Group now....... but he still did not know what was happening, as His guide edit, has many, many problems, and is NOT the same as the original Beginner's Guide, which was the way we were seeing it at the time, and may not be as accurate as the newer information you guys have compiled since then...........................

[forelle]

The C20 rate is for charging also?Because in Batteriesecrets from Peter Lindeman they showing chargingcharts where you can see that one charging cycle lasts only 5 hours.
I have one 8filiar coil and each strand has 2.6 ohm and with one coil i need 6 days to charge a 90ah battery(new), drive draws 1 amp 13.6v and charging is 0.7 amp with 470v spikes,i am at the beginning with the chargingcycles.JB says you have to take big batteries because in the small you cant see the effect.Is there no formula to calculate the impedance,because all other seems to me like guessing.
Is it possible to get to small batteries but not to get to big?Why it is allways talked about the amp draw on the drive side and not at the charging side.I thougt this machine charges with potential and not with current,but when i count the amp on the chargingside then i get with 0.7amp x24h~16.8amp a day x6~100amp
or is this only because my batteries are not conditioned?

[John_Koorn]

The C20 rate is for charging also?Because in Batteriesecrets from Peter Lindeman they showing chargingcharts where you can see that one charging cycle lasts only 5 hours.
I have one 8filiar coil and each strand has 2.6 ohm and with one coil i need 6 days to charge a 90ah battery(new), drive draws 1 amp 13.6v and charging is 0.7 amp with 470v spikes,i am at the beginning with the chargingcycles.JB says you have to take big batteries because in the small you cant see the effect.Is there no formula to calculate the impedance,because all other seems to me like guessing.
Is it possible to get to small batteries but not to get to big?Why it is allways talked about the amp draw on the drive side and not at the charging side.I thougt this machine charges with potential and not with current,but when i count the amp on the chargingside then i get with 0.7amp x24h~16.8amp a day x6~100amp
or is this only because my batteries are not conditioned?

Forelle, yes the charge battery is also the C20 rate. The chart from Peter's presentation was made a long time ago, when plates were thick, made from good material and battery repair shops could replace the plates if they failed. Back then batteries were charged with massive amounts of current so they only took 5 hours.

If you try to do that to a lead acid battery these days they simply would not last and you would need to replace the battery every 6 months or so. Since we are in the battery saving business we always recommend charging at the C20 rate as well.

Your 8 filar coil sounds like it has too much wire on it as 2.6 ohms which is probably why it takes 6 days to charge a 90Ah battery, which is also too big for your setup. You want a battery that can charge up from 12.2v in about 10 - 12 hours, this is why we always say to size the battery to the machine.

JB gave out the formula for calculating battery impedance - search his posts on this forum.

Personally I never measure the conventional current going into the charge battery, I'm only concerned about how much energy I get out of it at the C20 rate.

John K.

[Tom C]

Hello,

Most of the text above is from the Beginners Guide that Rick F., Richard L. and I composed from various posts of JB's, Romers and various other sources in the very beginning of the SG and SSG builders groups, and was slowly updated over the years as new info became available.......

"NOTES ON BATTERIES AND COILS IMPEDANCE MATCHING
• Ideally the impedance of each coil should match the C20 rate for the batteries."

The above part is from Miki's edited version of that original beginners guide posted on the the SG group just before JB had Sterling shut the SG Yahoo group down.

on smaller SG/SSG's you need to match the SSG or SG current draw to the C20 rate of a given battery so that the SG/SSG Current draw is lower than that batterys C20 rate, NOT the impedance....

In a different but related concept, on the bigger muilty Strand, muilty Coil SSG units like mine, at 48 strands of 18ga at 120ft, when you take each strand in parallel, {from memory} that = approx 0.002 ohms, which = the approx internal resistance of a Large Battery like a golf cart battery. This is what is meant by matching the impedance's on a SSG energizer to the battery's, but the current draw of the muilty Strand muilty Coil SSG should be way, way lower than the C20 of that size battery........

to John K and Tom C. FYI
During the early days of Sterling A's. SG Yahoo forum, Miki was one of the worst critics of JB's work, then right at the end, he must have seen something, as he did a complete 180 and started promoting the tech, and did the edit of the guide and posted it, and that edited guide is what is still on the SG Group now....... but he still did not know what was happening, as His guide edit, has many, many problems, and is NOT the same as the original Beginner's Guide, which was the way we were seeing it at the time, and may not be as accurate as the newer information you guys have compiled since then...........................

Yes I realise that, it was the way the answer was stated that confused me. You are not matching the coils impedance to C20 you are building a machine that will run at the C20 rate from the primary, to charge your batteries. The individual coil impedance is going to be the same for a single machine or multi coil machine, you simply add coils as your needs grow.

Are you still running the Danny B rotored machines? He had very unique bearings.

Tom C

[forelle]

What confuses me is why the battery should be to big,if i compare the 2 machines JB has running in his house,these are 0ne with 10 coils and One with 12 coils,together 22 coils and he has a batterybank with about 2000AH,if i'm right,and my coil is similar to his(i think),so normaly a 90AH battery for a 8 filiar coil(7 power 1 trigger,AWG 18,litz,150feet)should match what is needed,aproximatly.My energizer is designed for 6 coils,but i thought i should beginn first with one coil.I have selected the transistors,resistors and diodes so far i dont know a lot.I have a dual oszilloscope and the h-wave is nearly matching each transistor,but not absolut exactly.I dont know how exactly this has to be.If it's not absolute exactly is then the whole effect gone or only weaker?The best is probably if i condition the batteries first,equal how long it takes I think the battery cant be damaged if it's charged to slow,or?At the moment i have an amp draw of 0,8A primary and charge of 0.8A (analog meter)secondary wich would be good,so i dont loose much,but we all want a COP above one.I'm curious when the day comes that i reach this goal.

[Tom C]

What confuses me is why the battery should be to big,if i compare the 2 machines JB has running in his house,these are 0ne with 10 coils and One with 12 coils,together 22 coils and he has a batterybank with about 2000AH,if i'm right,and my coil is similar to his(i think),so normaly a 90AH battery for a 8 filiar coil(7 power 1 trigger,AWG 18,litz,150feet)should match what is needed,aproximatly.My energizer is designed for 6 coils,but i thought i should beginn first with one coil.I have selected the transistors,resistors and diodes so far i dont know a lot.I have a dual oszilloscope and the h-wave is nearly matching each transistor,but not absolut exactly.I dont know how exactly this has to be.If it's not absolute exactly is then the whole effect gone or only weaker?The best is probably if i condition the batteries first,equal how long it takes I think the battery cant be damaged if it's charged to slow,or?At the moment i have an amp draw of 0,8A primary and charge of 0.8A (analog meter)secondary wich would be good,so i dont loose much,but we all want a COP above one.I'm curious when the day comes that i reach this goal.

Forelle,

you seek what we all seek. all of John's machinse were built with specific things in mind, including testing for geometry of coils, magnet spacing etc. he is not running his 10 coil and 12 coil together charging the same bank. they were done seperately.

but let me give you some things that may help:

1- until you can get hi cop values with a large single coil multifilar machine, dont even try to step up to a multi coil machine, you are wasting your time. so keep working with the single coil machine.
2- normally an 18 gauge coil is quad filar, pentafilar with the trigger wire, your inductance may be off, I will look at some specs of coils I have.
3- you match the transistors with base current, not by matching the H wave. if your coil wires are the exact length and resistance individually, and your transistors are matched and your resistors and diodes match, all your collector outputs should be the same.
4- dont worry about charge current to the charge battery. just worry about running under C20 of your primary.

keep experimenting with your machine, changing one thing at a time, and watching for improvements.

Tom C

[RS_]

Yes I realise that, it was the way the answer was stated that confused me. You are not matching the coils impedance to C20 you are building a machine that will run at the C20 rate from the primary, to charge your batteries. The individual coil impedance is going to be the same for a single machine or multi coil machine, you simply add coils as your needs grow.

Are you still running the Danny B rotored machines? He had very unique bearings.

Tom C

Tom,

The last set of 3 SSG circuits running was a Fogal mod'ed circuit, and was doing really good, but the table the machine was on needed moving so the charging circuit was unhooked until i could move the other table with that set of SSG L16 charging batterys was on (heavy) So in the mean time, i had it spinning with the window motor addition, and testing various genny coils with the cap pulse charger. the primary batterys on the SSG machine table were still hooked up, but the SSG trigger switch was off so it was not running. Then some help showed up, and about that time it was time to go feed the critters, so i tell them to not touch any thing and went off to feed.... Then in the middle of feeding, they starting hollering that it was was on fire..... So i ran my butt up to see what the problem was, and when i came around the corner, smoke was boiling off of it. So i grabbed a wrench and unhooked the primary battery lead to the relay swapper system to shut it down.

one of them must have flipped the trigger ON/OFF switch and with the output unhooked it blew up, and when Golf cart batterys short out something, it burns, so that set of 3 SSG PCB's were toast.....

So at that time i was building the Green house and Aquaponics system and all my $$$ and time has been devoted to that since then, so i will get around to rebuilding the SSG PCB's, and buy some more L16 and GC's to get it all back to running real soon......

[Prinsloo]

Thanks Guys

Lots of useful in formation here in this thread, thanks, that we are getting now that was not part of the Yahoo Groups, what a effort to play catch up all the time !

@ RS sorry to hear about your loss, your " at 48 strands of 18ga at 120ft " coil mentioned, did you use it as a Solid state version or part of a rotor SSG version?

Thanks

Theunis

[Tom C]

Impedance matching and other things were talked about on the advanced groups, you had to do charge testing first. In some ways it was a bit of a pain, but in other ways it made sure you really UNDERSTOOD the machine. now we have members here who have builds that are all over the place, multi coil machines that wont run, guys building skate wheel rotors, horisontal rotors, wrong coils, wrong magnets, wrong circuits, everything.

I do miss the ability to make sure people ran things correctly. We had a few members who just filled out the spread sheet to advance, and as soon as they got advanced, were asking questions about how to do a good solder joint!! so even after all the "gates" people were still idiots!! for the most part those who were advanced becaome the core of a research group that build good machines, that charged well, and they understood most of what we are talking about.

We have access to JB now and then, but you have to understand that for him this "SG stuff" is 30 years old, he is way beyond the basic stuff, it was a research project. so he allows us to learn by doing. I do not expect to be spoon fed, and truthfully, I dont want to be.

A simple look at the SG and what it does, is all you need. Be creative in your switching, coil inductance and impedance, wire size, how to gain mechanical advantage.it all matters. here are some simple questions:
can you put the coil somewhere else to give mechanical advantage?
what can you do with the mechanical? (hardly anyone pursures this)
how can the mechanical be additive?
how can you run a genny coil and it be non reflective?

there are literally 100 experiments you can to with a single multi filar SG


Tom C

[RS_]

@ RS sorry to hear about your loss, your " at 48 strands of 18ga at 120ft " coil mentioned, did you use it as a Solid state version or part of a rotor SSG version?

Thanks

Theunis

Theunuis,

The 48 strands are in 6 coils with 8 strands each, except for the master with 9, and are on the Dan B. SSG unit described above, that had that last set of 3 specially modified SSG Driver PCB's blown up.

[Prinsloo]

Theunuis,

The 48 strands are in 6 coils with 8 strands each, except for the master with 9, and are on the Dan B. SSG unit described above, that had that last set of 3 specially modified SSG Driver PCB's blown up.

RS

I for one keep my room where my SSG is running and batteries are, locked, it is so tempting to see a switch specially if there is a light/led or two burning for anyone/most people to not leave it alone, luckily no one got burnt your side. One must realize the short-circuit capacity on these monsters batteries are huge, should it happen, my small 177 amp batts have a short circuit capacity of 6 000 amp, enough to vaporize a wire and cause serious injury !

RS Back to your build, and what is the main difference between the Dan B SSG and Fogal mod'ed circuit and the normal 6 coiler build example like Ralphs build?, except that you had doubled the strands per coil, also can you give more info on your dumps circuit, cap size, and how fast you dump (Hz), etc.

I would also like (if you want) to post some picture of your damaged boards etc., (not to revel in your loss but) we need to realize the potential of danger with bigger systems, (if at all possible and if you are willing. )

Thanks

Theunis