Trick of COP calculation

[freeenergy]

In COP table, the Battery COP vs. Battery charge is the ratio between Discharge Output Joules compared to the Charge Input Joules. And Charge Input Joules is calculated from charging battery's Charge Input Amps and Average Resting Voltage.

It sounds correct and people claimed that their COP is more than 1. However if we think carefully, the Charge Input Joules should be calculated from Primary Draw Amps and Primary battery's average resting voltage. The primary battery's input Joules supplys energy for wheel turning and charging battery. So the charging battery's energy is from both radiant energy and electric energy. That is similar to use two conventional chargers to charge one battery.

So I think it is not right when people claim that that his COP is more than 1 as he ignored the radiant energy input in COP table.

If it is true, then I will feel that SSG's advantage is rejunvating battery only instead of obtaining the COP which is more than 1.

Dear experts, may I have your opinion?

Thank you very much

[John_Koorn]

You misunderstood the intention of the COP spreadsheet. It was designed to prove that the is something else besides the conventional electricity that is charging the charge battery only!

John K.

[freeenergy]

You misunderstood the intention of the COP spreadsheet. It was designed to prove that the is something else besides the conventional electricity that is charging the charge battery only!

John K.

Dear John

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I believe charging battery with SSG is by using conventional electric energy and radiant energy. But what is the point to charge batery like that? Compare with conventional charger, SSG takes very long time to charge a battery and do not know when it is fully charged. By using conventional battery, the charging is fast and it can automatically stop charging when the battery is fully charged. Moreover I believe SSG's charging efficiency (based on the input from primary battery) is not as good as conventional charger as there is energy consumated by turning wheel and turning wheel caused enery lost.

Maybe another explanation of using SSG to charge battery is it can prolong the battery discharging time. But how to prove it? So far, I have done 7 cycles (The battery was charged by SSG for 24hrs) and discharged by CBAIII. I compared with converntional charger's charging performance (I charged the same battery for two cycles before I switched to SSG) and I found it was worse (less time spent to discharge to 10.5V default cutoff voltage).

I am a fans of SSG and I hope experts here can clear my doubts.

Thank you very much

[knagtegl]

freeenergy,

I have build several SSG devices in the last three years but I disagree with your view. My unit is charging any battery even ones that where standing empty for years and very sulfated. I could not charge them with a standard charger. The SSG will charge them easy and fast to.

Of course you will have to scale them up to charge bigger batteries faster.
A normal charger produces heat in the charger and the battery and that I call loss of energy. The turning of the wheel is not wasting the energy because the magnetic field is there anyway and it is a perfect trigger.
I believe the ssg still outperformes the SS SSG so It seems to even add energy instead of
waste it.
And the battery is getting better every run and I hate to buy new batteries every time when
a conventional charger kills them.

And you don't need a automatic stop because they will not get overcharged so easy as a
normal charger and there is no heat in the battery, worst case you have to add some water.

I still don't see OU but It is the best battery charger I have ever seen.

Karel

[Tom C]

Dear John

Thanks for your reply. Yes, I believe charging battery with SSG is by using conventional electric energy and radiant energy. But what is the point to charge batery like that? Compare with conventional charger, SSG takes very long time to charge a battery and do not know when it is fully charged. By using conventional battery, the charging is fast and it can automatically stop charging when the battery is fully charged. Moreover I believe SSG's charging efficiency (based on the input from primary battery) is not as good as conventional charger as there is energy consumated by turning wheel and turning wheel caused enery lost.

Maybe another explanation of using SSG to charge battery is it can prolong the battery discharging time. But how to prove it? So far, I have done 7 cycles (The battery was charged by SSG for 24hrs) and discharged by CBAIII. I compared with converntional charger's charging performance (I charged the same battery for two cycles before I switched to SSG) and I found it was worse (less time spent to discharge to 10.5V default cutoff voltage).

I am a fans of SSG and I hope experts here can clear my doubts.

Thank you very much

its not about how fast you can charge your battery. the SG is to understand a concept of harvesting the dipole from the vacuum. if you cannot charge a good lead acid battery with another good lead acid battery of the same amp hour rating, your machine is not tuned. something is not right. thousands of replications thousands of successes. its not about length of time with the SG its about what it does to the battery and where the energy comes from. Tom C

[freeenergy]

freeenergy,

I have build several SSG devices in the last three years but I disagree with your view. My unit is charging any battery even ones that where standing empty for years and very sulfated. I could not charge them with a standard charger. The SSG will charge them easy and fast to.

Of course you will have to scale them up to charge bigger batteries faster.
A normal charger produces heat in the charger and the battery and that I call loss of energy. The turning of the wheel is not wasting the energy because the magnetic field is there anyway and it is a perfect trigger.
I believe the ssg still outperformes the SS SSG so It seems to even add energy instead of
waste it.
And the battery is getting better every run and I hate to buy new batteries every time when
a conventional charger kills them.

And you don't need a automatic stop because they will not get overcharged so easy as a
normal charger and there is no heat in the battery, worst case you have to add some water.

I still don't see OU but It is the best battery charger I have ever seen.

Karel

Dear Karel and Tom

Thanks for clearing my doubt. I am happy I did not waste time to do the SSG experiments. At least I know the result will be promising although I have not seen the advantage over the conventional charger at this moment (I just finished 8th cycles only). I used 12V 7.2AH battery to charge another 12V 7.2AH battery. It only can run about 10hours. In order to run 24hours, I have to change primary battery after 10 hours. Now I use 12V 12AH battery as primary battery. After SSG run for 24 hours, the voltage dropped to 8.55V (just before disconnect the primary battery). In order to run continue 24 hours, can I use a conventional charger to replace the primary battery? I remembered in beginners' handbook, it stated that the sparks will charge primary battery also. So if I used conventional charger as power source, will it cause any dangerous?

When I used conventional charger to charge battery, yes, the charger is hot however the battery is still cool. So I think the conventional charger is not killing the battery as it only casues heat in the charger instead of battery.

[freeenergy]

freeenergy,

I have build several SSG devices in the last three years but I disagree with your view. My unit is charging any battery even ones that where standing empty for years and very sulfated. I could not charge them with a standard charger. The SSG will charge them easy and fast to.

Of course you will have to scale them up to charge bigger batteries faster.
A normal charger produces heat in the charger and the battery and that I call loss of energy. The turning of the wheel is not wasting the energy because the magnetic field is there anyway and it is a perfect trigger.
I believe the ssg still outperformes the SS SSG so It seems to even add energy instead of
waste it.
And the battery is getting better every run and I hate to buy new batteries every time when
a conventional charger kills them.

And you don't need a automatic stop because they will not get overcharged so easy as a
normal charger and there is no heat in the battery, worst case you have to add some water.

I still don't see OU but It is the best battery charger I have ever seen.

Karel

Dear Karel

How did you prove the battery is getting better every run? Do you base on the timing it can last for every discharge? Until today I have completed 9 cycles and have not seen any improvement in discharge timing. I compared the discharge timing of charging with SSG and conventional charger, the discharge timing of SSG is about 100seconds less than that of conventional charger. I have done 2 cycles in a same battery by using conventional charger before I started to charge it by using SSG.

Now I bought another battery (12V 7.2AH also) to charge by using conventional battery and I want to compare the discharge timing with the battery (12V 7.2AH) charged by SSG.

I used CBAIII to discharge the battery, both discharge current and cutoff voltage are used the default value (7.2A and 10.5V). The discharge timing is based on the software so it should be very accurate.

[knagtegl]

Freenergy,

All I can say is that the battery I am now charging is more than 10 years old and it had only 4 volts on it and a conventional charger does not charge
it anymore.
This Is the COP run sheet for this batt:
SSG COP 60ah.zip

Karel

[freeenergy]

Freenergy,

All I can say is that the battery I am now charging is more than 10 years old and it had only 4 volts on it and a conventional charger does not charge
it anymore.
This Is the COP run sheet for this batt:
[ATTACH]2268[/ATTACH]

Karel

Dear Karel

Thanks for sharing your sheet. Until today I have completed 10 cycles and my maximum COP is 0.99 only. The battery I am charging is 12V, 7.2AH (but actually when I tested in CBAIII after charging by conventional charger, it is only about 3.2AH only). After run 10 cycles with charging by SSG, it becomes 2.787AH (worse than charged by conventional charger). I will continue to run another 10 cycles to see is there any improvement.

Thanks for discussion with me.

[Tom C]

a junk battery will give you junk results. no wonder you are having problems. discharging 10.5 is too low for a lead acid battery unless it is a true deep cycle 80% d.o.d. depth of discharge is what you want to discharge to. and you need to charge your new battery to at least 14.5 Tom C

[freeenergy]

a junk battery will give you junk results. no wonder you are having problems. discharging 10.5 is too low for a lead acid battery unless it is a true deep cycle 80% d.o.d. depth of discharge is what you want to discharge to. and you need to charge your new battery to at least 14.5 Tom C

Dear Tom

When I used SSG to charge battery (12V, 7.2AH), I charged 24HRS and maximum I can charge to 13.35V (End Resting Voltage). As SSG can rejuvenate battery or improve the battery's capacity, so I think it does not matter if the battery is junk battery or good battery. Discharging to 10.5V is the default cutoff value set by CBAIII. Of course I can change the default value but I want to remain it now as I want to compare with my previous 10 runs by SSG. In the meanwhile also compare with those runs by conventional charger. I want to see SSG is a really better charger over the conventional charger.

I want to attach my COP table of running by SSG and converntional charger here. May I know how to attach here

Thanks

[freeenergy]

Freenergy,

All I can say is that the battery I am now charging is more than 10 years old and it had only 4 volts on it and a conventional charger does not charge
it anymore.
This Is the COP run sheet for this batt:
[ATTACH]2268[/ATTACH]


Karel

Hi, Karel

How many runs you run to rejuvenate the old dead battery?

[Tom C]

Dear Tom

When I used SSG to charge battery (12V, 7.2AH), I charged 24HRS and maximum I can charge to 13.35V (End Resting Voltage). As SSG can rejuvenate battery or improve the battery's capacity, so I think it does not matter if the battery is junk battery or good battery. Discharging to 10.5V is the default cutoff value set by CBAIII. Of course I can change the default value but I want to remain it now as I want to compare with my previous 10 runs by SSG. In the meanwhile also compare with those runs by conventional charger. I want to see SSG is a really better charger over the conventional charger.

I want to attach my COP table of running by SSG and converntional charger here. May I know how to attach here

Thanks

you can discharge to whatever you want..... its your battery you are destroying. the CBAIII has no idea what the cutoff should be. I have a cba IIII it has all the variable for discharge. I suggest you contact the battery manufacturer and ask them what the cutoff voltage should be. you are destroying your battery. of course it matters if your battery is junk when doing sg cycles!!. if you are rejuvenating that battery, then a charge discharge cycle is all you need, no cop calculations. rejuvenation is not over unity, ever!! you will not get hi cops with a junk battery, all the energy is being used to desulphate.

you are not fully charging your battery if you are only going to 13.2 thats only about 65 percent. the fully charged cutoff voltage for a battery is around 14.5 if you read the manufacturers spec of most batteries. peter lindemann in his battery secrets lecture talks about how he likes to see them at 16.2 because that is where ALL the material is returned to the plates where it belongs and where the battery simply becomes a hydrogen generator. you are wasting time trying to rejuvenate it if you are discharging to 10.5 that is undoing anythng the SG may be doing to restore the battery. 80% depth of discharge is the max you want to run a lead acid battery at which is between 12.2 and 12 volts. batteries are like a living plant you gotta tend to them the way they are designed or they will die. you wil be frustrated with your results if you dont learn about the battery first. use the go advanced button when you post to attach something.

Tom C

[freeenergy]

you can discharge to whatever you want..... its your battery you are destroying. the CBAIII has no idea what the cutoff should be. I have a cba IIII it has all the variable for discharge. I suggest you contact the battery manufacturer and ask them what the cutoff voltage should be. you are destroying your battery. of course it matters if your battery is junk when doing sg cycles!!. if you are rejuvenating that battery, then a charge discharge cycle is all you need, no cop calculations. rejuvenation is not over unity, ever!! you will not get hi cops with a junk battery, all the energy is being used to desulphate.

you are not fully charging your battery if you are only going to 13.2 thats only about 65 percent. the fully charged cutoff voltage for a battery is around 14.5 if you read the manufacturers spec of most batteries. peter lindemann in his battery secrets lecture talks about how he likes to see them at 16.2 because that is where ALL the material is returned to the plates where it belongs and where the battery simply becomes a hydrogen generator. you are wasting time trying to rejuvenate it if you are discharging to 10.5 that is undoing anythng the SG may be doing to restore the battery. 80% depth of discharge is the max you want to run a lead acid battery at which is between 12.2 and 12 volts. batteries are like a living plant you gotta tend to them the way they are designed or they will die. you wil be frustrated with your results if you dont learn about the battery first. use the go advanced button when you post to attach something.

Tom C

Dear Tom

Thanks for your patient. OK, I will follow your instruction, continue to charge until 16.2V and discharge to 12.2V. I will see what kind of improvement I can have. It is quite frustrating to see no improvement after 11 cycles.

Is the 14.5V resting voltage, terminating voltage or voltage just before SSG stops? How did you calculate 80% depth of discharge is between 12.2 and 12 volts? And also how did you calculate 13.2V is only 65% of charging?

Best Regards

[Tom C]

Dear Tom

Thanks for your patient. OK, I will follow your instruction, continue to charge until 16.2V and discharge to 12.2V. I will see what kind of improvement I can have. It is quite frustrating to see no improvement after 11 cycles.

Is the 14.5V resting voltage, terminating voltage or voltage just before SSG stops? How did you calculate 80% depth of discharge is between 12.2 and 12 volts? And also how did you calculate 13.2V is only 65% of charging?

Best Regards

1- your junk battery will not go that hi probably, on the SG it will stop where the sulfation will no longer come off the plates. i did not expect to see improvement of your battery at all given how it has been treated. stop wasting your time with that thing. if you want to desuphate it crank the current up on the primary and blow the sulfation off the plates. its the pulse that cleans the plates and dissolves the sulfation. you will not have over unity at ALL but your capacity may come back, maybe !! you cannot expect increased capacity or faster charging with a junk battery.

2- do you have the manufacturers specs for your battery? read them and use them as a basline for YOUR battery. 14.5 is the charge termination voltage usually from the manufacturer but it VARIES by manufacturer. your batteries might be good at 15.3 not 16.2 as John K has said. its DIFFERENT for every battery. Peters batteries were deep cycle Golf kart style 6 volt cells.

3- by running a battery charged to 13.2 on my CBA and comparing it to what its capacity should be. often times a battery will sit at 13.2 for a very long time as it fills up. you need to research charge curves for batteries to see what they look like.

its all about the battery....... the machine performs based upon what it is hooked to, its not magic. learn the theory of operation, then learn about lead acid batteries and then you will answer for yourself your questions, it will be obvious why the battery wont charge up fully.

Tom C