How to Make a Bedini Crystal Battery

[k4zep]

Hi Gang,

Results of my # 5 Charge/Discharge is available on YouTube. No need to wast bandwidth here.


Pickle Battery Charge/Discharge #5 - YouTube

This has just been a verification that the Pickle Battery works to my satisfaction. Tomorrow I
will have data showing Input in Ah vs. Output in Ah and calculate efficiency of battery process.
I have also figured out a way to show both test on one chart (I think). I'm starting to remember
how to get around software limitations on that West Mountain Radio programmable dis-charger..

Ben K4ZEP

[John_Bedini]

Knovos,
Remember what I said, I can see I must make another video and explain in more detail on the Alum Battery. If you can not get Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate, then use the standard Alum since they just changed the label to get past the safety requirements.Ok, now that I have said that, Remember, Remember. The plates from an old battery have formed a very hard Sulfate on them after washing them and making the alum paste for this project, do not use "Salt Substitute" in these batteries even if it looks like it gels, not good.
Straight Alum paste will do just fine for your experiment. Anyway, the Sulfate on the two same negative lead plates force you to choose which is going to be positive and which is negative. Then assemble the battery in a shallow box or plastic pan. Keep the battery saturated in the liquid Alum paste, hook to a power supply and get a current reading I like 1 Amp. Since the plates are Sulfated the voltage may be high, don't worry, adjust the supply for the current. keep that one amp on the cell for 15 to 20 minutes, then stop discharge if charged then reverse the supply and form the battery. Why, you must dissolve the Sulfate that is why I said reverse charge then normal charge. Watch the video again I know it's boring but that is the way it is.

Hi to you all, new here and running curves for some day's now. Yes I am a little confused what alum is the right one. I know I red ammonium aluminum sulphate. Thats not what I got from the local store here in the Netherlands. I have a kilo pot potassium aluminum sulphate KAI (SO4)2 12H2O. The powder is like Christal sugar. I spite of this, maybe wrong alum, it works. I made a 12v 42 amp battery empty, neutralized the plates with backing soda + water and put in my 10% alum + distilled water. I am running curves and can get a charge up to 15.6 volt which drops down in rest to 12.45 volts. I have a 100 watt load made with some car bulbs to hit this battery. Have to do some more curves but this is very promising!

Experiment 2: Took another lead acid battery apart with bad cells. Oh man that is a dirty job. The negative plates (41) are usable, the positive plates not. They felt apart as crumbled red lead. Took 2 negative plates, neutralized with backing powder and put them into the alum mixture. Nothing happened after charging. Then, like John says I rubbed some red lead crumble onto both sides of 1 plate and dried them. After charging BINGO! A nice voltage of 1.8 volts after several times of charging and discharging. When I put a 12v car bulb as a load on this two small plates it has a little glow on the bulb threads measuring 0.7 amp with 1.4 volts. Of course the voltage drops but the amps drops slow. What a finding! Thank you John charing all this. With some solar cells it is possible to make a hole battery bank out of crappy lead battery's. You are so inspiring John, you keep me busy this is FUN.

Kind regards,
Knovos.

[John_Bedini]

Ben,
Good to see you here. Ben I hate to bring this up but the battery is just a battery that you recovered. Yes it has a different impedance shift towards the end of the curve but it is still acting like a lead acid battery in a way. The curve in the start is showing some of the effects of the way Alum works, and then it follows the normal curve. The battery that Chuck and I were showing was made from just the plates of an old Gel cell with a thick paste forming a Lead Crystal Hydrate Cell that is why the curve is different in my video. I guess what I should do is take apart an old Trojan using the plates to make the battery much bigger so I can run the curves again for everybody on lead Gel Crystal Hydrates.

You have done a very good job recovering that battery that was totally useless to you. Batteries normally give back what you put in them minus the plate grid and wire loss if it is a good battery. Marine deep cycles are just heavy duty starting batteries in the package you have. Not really a deep cycle battery. Anyway Glad to have you here. Hope we can talk more. Oh, have you built any of the crystal batteries?, if you have then you would understand the liner discharge curve down to zero, crystal units fall off in a liner range as in the video I posted, they do not just fall down and die. Hope this helps explain what I'm looking for in the batteries I'm building. Good work Ben on that battery, should start your boat right up

[Lidmotor]

Tearing apart an old battery

@All
I took apart an old sealed lead acid battery today and it was a terrible experience. I was a large battery and I was only able to salvage a few negative plates and some crumbled up pieces of positive plates. It was a messy and frustrating job because this battery was made to NEVER be opened up. Everything was glued or interlocked together. You could not simply cut around the top and pull it apart. I had to tear it apart in little pieces and then when I finally got to the plates-- the positive ones just crumbled. I did make a little test cell using parts of a negative plate and got it to take a charge. I didn't smear the pos plate with the red/brown stuff but it still formed up somehow. I charged and discharged it a bunch of times and it does hold some juice now.

My thoughts on the idea of using parts out of old sealed lead acid batteries--- never again. The positive plates are probably shot and it is just too much trouble unless you get lucky and the case comes apart easily. There has to be a better way.

Lidmotor

[John_Koorn]

Lidmotor, I too spend some time pulling apart an old 2Ah gel-cell (thought I'd start with something small to practice on). I had the same thing with the positive plates crumbling but all the negative plates were in pretty good shape.

I found the easiest way to get these apart is to cut the top off with a hack-saw, just where the seem of where the top is glued to the bottom.

My plan is to crush up the red lead with a mortar and pestle and then mix it with distilled water to make a paste. After I clean the grey lead up with distilled water and an old toothbrush I'll paste half of the plates and let them dry.

Then I plan to make an alum paste and then put the battery back together, form the plates and then charge it up with a mini Tesla Switch off solar.

John K.

[k4zep]

Hi All,

Computer woke me up at end of discharge cycle #6 at 2:30 in morning. After looking at numbers,I can't sleep from implications so will upload video and let all make their own conclusions.
When you look at the overall picture of pulse charging batteries, Lead Acid characteristics, Pickle battery characteristics, it is a lot to understand and a lot is now understood. Most interesting results. I must run the test many more times, that is all I will say. Thanks for all those other videos John! They sure made me think.

[k4zep]

Ben,
Good to see you here. Ben I hate to bring this up but the battery is just a battery that you recovered. Yes it has a different impedance shift towards the end of the curve but it is still acting like a lead acid battery in a way. The curve in the start is showing some of the effects of the way Alum works, and then it follows the normal curve. The battery that Chuck and I were showing was made from just the plates of an old Gel cell with a thick paste forming a Lead Crystal Hydrate Cell that is why the curve is different in my video. I guess what I should do is take apart an old Trojan using the plates to make the battery much bigger so I can run the curves again for everybody on lead Gel Crystal Hydrates.

You have done a very good job recovering that battery that was totally useless to you. Batteries normally give back what you put in them minus the plate grid and wire loss if it is a good battery. Marine deep cycles are just heavy duty starting batteries in the package you have. Not really a deep cycle battery. Anyway Glad to have you here. Hope we can talk more. Oh, have you built any of the crystal batteries?, if you have then you would understand the liner discharge curve down to zero, crystal units fall off in a liner range as in the video I posted, they do not just fall down and die. Hope this helps explain what I'm looking for in the batteries I'm building. Good work Ben on that battery, should start your boat right up

Morning John,

Thanks for the information John and it's also good to see you here. That old battery is sort of a hybrid and with the Alum,and I totally agree with you that it is not the best or final way to do this process, but it was a quick and dirty way to get my feet wet here. It does show some of the characteristics of your crystal device. The impedance shifts are most important I feel as it opens the door to some interesting results. As soon as I have beat this thing to death and sucked it dry from a learning point of view, I'll go on to the better devices you have showed. As usual, I'm in catch up mode and you are light years ahead of the rest of us. See my next short video, There are areas it looks like your crystal batteries (at around .5VDC/cell but then there are the other curves there too! I'm sure you smile when you see those charts as I'm sure you have been there and done that.....Again thanks for the input, I'll keep whacking away here. More later

Ben

[knovos]

Thanks John. Sorry but I mist that remark of you about the standard Alum. I have watched some video's again but I can not find what is the second powder to form (very fast) the thick alum paste. Is it a protected formula you developed? If not please let me know. You mentioned something like you did this in another forum.

Knovos,
If you can not get Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate, then use the standard Alum since they just changed the label to get past the safety requirements.Ok, now that I have said that, Remember, Remember. The plates from an old battery have formed a very hard Sulfate on them after washing them and making the alum paste for this project

got it.

do not use "Salt Substitute" in these batteries even if it looks like it gels, not good.

I forgot to mention i did used the reverse charge method but with 4volt 2.5 amps. Anyway it works and I will use it with 1 amp for the next cells. Time to build a bigger cell with or without the paste. And NO your video's are not boring!

Straight Alum paste will do just fine for your experiment. Anyway, the Sulfate on the two same negative lead plates force you to choose which is going to be positive and which is negative. Then assemble the battery in a shallow box or plastic pan. Keep the battery saturated in the liquid Alum paste, hook to a power supply and get a current reading I like 1 Amp. Since the plates are Sulfated the voltage may be high, don't worry, adjust the supply for the current. keep that one amp on the cell for 15 to 20 minutes, then stop discharge if charged then reverse the supply and form the battery. Why, you must dissolve the Sulfate that is why I said reverse charge then normal charge. Watch the video again I know it's boring but that is the way it is.

Knovos.

[k4zep]

Hi John and All,

Just got up, wore my self out last night. 9 in the morning. I am now doing a test that also shows the Watt Hours out of the battery. Here is the funny part of this battery with ALUM in it. You are right, it is just another acid driven battery with a less acidic liquid. Under certain and above, high current loads, its charts look just like a lead acid battery! No different except for cell voltage and not as efficient as a LA battery for this concentration of electrolyte I have here, but a very good battery too! At lower current loads and at low voltage/cell in the area of 0.57 to 0.59 VDC, it looks like a very weak Primary battery and just keeps on giving and giving. I haven't connected the dots between what is going on in the Secondary side of it being a battery (rechargeable) and the Primary side, that is self generating a bit of power in the 0 to .5 amp range. I think they might be adding up in this battery. If I put a bit of power in the battery at these cell voltages, It might be adding that energy and the self generated energy up to a sum total of power/energy available and that is what is "Playing" with me!

Graph attached.



After my video of last night showing the 10+ah output, I though on the above for a while as I couldn't sleep anyway. When I had it down to 1 VDC via the discharger, I shorted the battery with a clip lead. It dropped to about .9VDC and just stayed there. Remove lead and discharger, it jumped back up to about 4.0 VDC. Thought Hummmmmmmm......so I put it on discharge @ .5 amp, bottom of graph showing WATT Hours and let her run. A short time into the run I shorted the battery again and at the extreme left hand side, you can see that pulse. It has been running ever since. There is a SLOW decline in voltage, make your own conclusions. It is possible that a short pulse of power in, resets the battery a bit higher and more power flows out, damned if I know.

Notice in this test run, it has been running with a .5 amp constant current load starting @ 3.83 VDC and now droping to 3.67VDC, 1.64 AmpHr, 6.15 WattHr removed.
Test continues. Later I might add a definitive amount of energy as before while monitoring it and see what happens additive wise.

I'll have some more ALUM here in a couple days, then get into the latest type of cells you have shown.

Ben K4ZEP

[John_Bedini]

Alum Crystal Cell

@ All,
Ok, I guess I must start here and I do not know how long this is going to take me to get you to understand the technology, it's not easy to do or understand. Most here have not worked with batteries as long as I have. Most in the groups accused me of speaking in the third person. Well I am when it comes to the work that I have done in this field. Sorry but I can not talk about the work you have done because I'm not watching you except for what you post. If you do not understand how the person built the clock you will never understand how the gears work.
So, what were talking about here is how I did my work, it has nothing to do with Ego.
On the Earth Lights Forum I have discussed all of this, including Heptahydrates and Hydrates and what they do. The problem was lack of focus by what I call disrupters who start to inject nonsense with things like oil, WD40, detergents, and so on these things do not apply to Crystal Formulas that deal with Hydrates or Heptahydrates and show a lack of understanding on what the subject is. Again I will say it is not easy to do this.

I singed a confidential discloser with Marcus Reid or I would have talked about his Crystal Cell which is still running under constant load and I even put it in front of everybody at the last conference and I will do it again. So you all tell me where the mind block is. You just can't look at something and then refuse to believe it when it's working. Marcus used Aluminum and Copper but that is not all that will work, Lead oxides work far better with Hydrates, Get it, Hydrates. In the Crystal Cell Structure you must lock up the water for the Ions to move through the lattice in the Crystal. Alum, Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate is what? and where is aluminum on the valance chart, and then where is Lead? How many electrons do these things have to give up. What moves the Ions in a Lead battery, what is the SG machine doing to the ions in the battery?, since it's not developing any current what is moving the ions to Charge the battery.
I said many times do not expect the same voltage from Ammonium Aluminum sulfate cells, even with Lead oxides. The Battery will stand much lower in voltage but that does not mean it can not do work. I did the charts to show where the working voltage is, and I said you must design the electronics around the battery your working with.
If I just hand you the formula you will not learn anything in this field. You must do the research and read it out loud to yourself, so you learn. Watching something does not mean you understand because your second guessing on what I used.
When you use Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate in the lead acid battery converted and providing that you do not push 5000 amps to it you will notice the battery stays cold, why is that? What would happen if all the resistors stayed cold in your circuits you build, what would that mean to you?

Hydrates: Hydrates are inorganic salts "containing water molecules combined in a definite ratio as an integral part of the crystal that are either bound to a metal center or that have crystallized with the metal complex. Such hydrates are also said to contain Water of crystallization or water of hydration.
So here is a picture of the bond and the chemical that is produced.

[Lidmotor]

Sleepless nights

@Ben
I know what you mean about not being able to sleep when these projects get into your brain. I have also worked on on things at 3 AM. I agree with what you and John B. said about these old battery conversions not being true Lead-Alum batteries. They are really hybrid batteries ---still a type of lead acid just diluted and the chemistry changed with the Alum. When I took that old battery apart yesterday and saw how most of the plate material was oxide paste it dawned on me that one is not going to get all the acid out of an old battery just by rinsing it out. Some is still going to remain. I also found out that the oxide paste itself is made with sulfuric acid at the factory when the plates are first made.

@John B.
The video where you and Chuck made your own plates, drilled holes in them, and then filled the holes with lead oxide is kinda where I want to go now. I can get the fresh lead oxide on Ebay so I don't have to use the perhaps contaminated old stuff out of batteries. I know that this pure lead- alum rechargeable works because of my early test cell experiments. All I am trying to do now is prove that I can vastly improve the capacity by using a clean lead oxide paste material on the plates.

Buying a dry lead acid battery from a store and filling it with Alum still raises the question of there being sulfuric acid (dehydrated??) in it because of the way that they are made at the factory. The only way to remove that doubt is to build a battery from scrtatch and never use any sulfuric acid in the process.
These "hybrid" batteries, like what Ben and I made, do work quite well and have some very desirable characteristics. What Ben showed in his last video was amazing. Where did those extra amp hours come from?



Lidmotor

[LesK]

Lidmotor,

I was thinking about what you said about not getting the acid out. I have noticed in a couple of my batteries that the red lead comes out with the washing. Not good! but I am going to try one of them anyway.
But here is the other thought I had. John has always said to fully charge them before draining. If we go on what Peter explained at the 2011 conference where when the battery is charged to it's full 16.2 volt node all the chemistry is back.
In that case the sulfation is gone and isn't the Acid completely separated? Even the material used in manufacturing? This may be another very good reason for the SSG. We know it De-sulfates batteries and that process also allows the complete chemical cleanup as well. I would think even on new batteries....


I will go back over my notes from Peters presentation today and see what he described about the chemistry. I want to try and answer John Bedini's question and I wonder if the answer is in Peter's lecture.

Les

[John_Bedini]

LesK,
That statement is correct if you completely charged the battery the chemistry is different.
This is known, you can only sulfate if you discharge the battery, now the battery is different again, like putting glass sheets over the plates and having no windows open for electrons to travel between the oxides. This is the reason I said reverse the charge on the plates and then charge it normal until formed. Lead sheets and putting a grid pattern in them is going to be hard, but I have an idea here. An old waffle maker just might do the trick for making the lead grids. The paste is another thing as it is required to use the acid for a binding agent for the lead, but we could find a way round that too. I know what Lidmotor is saying here but you must buy Lead oxide (III) to paste in the plates. I have been very successful with two of the same plates ( Sponge Lead) it does not fall off the plates like red lead. The other reason I said the Alum solution must feel slippery when touching it. Most of the Gel Cells are very badly damaged from heavy dis-charges and rapid charging. On the other hand, the negative plates can be used if you do what I have said above, it makes a very powerful battery but requires a forming charge at very low current from 100 to 300Ma for 72 hrs minimum. All is not lost here.

[k4zep]

@Ben
I know what you mean about not being able to sleep when these projects get into your brain. I have also worked on on things at 3 AM. I agree with what you and John B. said about these old battery conversions not being true Lead-Alum batteries. They are really hybrid batteries ---still a type of lead acid just diluted and the chemistry changed with the Alum. When I took that old battery apart yesterday and saw how most of the plate material was oxide paste it dawned on me that one is not going to get all the acid out of an old battery just by rinsing it out. Some is still going to remain. I also found out that the oxide paste itself is made with sulfuric acid at the factory when the plates are first made.

@John B.
The video where you and Chuck made your own plates, drilled holes in them, and then filled the holes with lead oxide is kinda where I want to go now. I can get the fresh lead oxide on Ebay so I don't have to use the perhaps contaminated old stuff out of batteries. I know that this pure lead- alum rechargeable works because of my early test cell experiments. All I am trying to do now is prove that I can vastly improve the capacity by using a clean lead oxide paste material on the plates.

Buying a dry lead acid battery from a store and filling it with Alum still raises the question of there being sulfuric acid (dehydrated??) in it because of the way that they are made at the factory. The only way to remove that doubt is to build a battery from scrtatch and never use any sulfuric acid in the process.
These "hybrid" batteries, like what Ben and I made, do work quite well and have some very desirable characteristics. What Ben showed in his last video was amazing. Where did those extra amp hours come from?



Lidmotor

Hi Lid,

Does anyone have the link to the video where John makes his crystal battery? I need to watch it a few times. The thing about the converted Led Acid battery is that unless you discharge it completely, there is extra juice floating around in there and I think it has been leading me down the merry road of the battery "gotcha"......I charged my battery before I converted as I remembered that it drove the acid out of the plates or at least some of it. And I like you suspect there is some acid in there mixed with the ALUM. My voltage with a full charge is around 12.3 floating and around 12 when under a mild load. So it isn't the real thing but like I said, a hybred mix between Lead Acid and ALUM. So for now, I'm playing with different areas of the charge, different rates and seeing if or where I get the best return on a charge or bang for the buck. Then I'll do a full charge on it and put it away for a while. About working at 3 a.m., if I wake up and start thinking numbers, i'm wide awake.......and can't sleep and it got me good last night.....so I'm bleary eyed today.

I have to think on what John wrote on the last page. I wish I had been more awake in chemistry 49 years ago but that little blond next to me was a total distraction! Heck, no way I would have remembered anything anyway. But I surely appreciate John trying to show us a better way to make a "battery" system to use with the SSG. I'm game to keep at it.

Respectfully
Ben

[Tom C]

go to youtube, the energenx channel all of them are there.
Tom C