How to Make a Bedini Crystal Battery

[RS_]

JB,

I have been following along here, and think that Borax would be a good 5 hydrate to add to the 2 other hydrates

NH4Al(SO4)2·12H2O Alum

Na2SiO2(OH)2·4H2O Sodium silicate

you said to add a 5 or 9 hydrate to the 2 above hydrates

Na2[B4O5(OH)4]·8H2O borax, this would be a octahydrate in a fully hydrated form. § Borax pentahydrate (Na2B4O7·5H2O) is a 5 hydrate, a partly dehydrated form, that is commonly sold as detergent ie: 20 Mule Team

borax, is Sodium, Boron oxide, hydrate

mixing correct proportions of these 3 would create a Synthetic Zeolite, and adding just enough SO4 to make the PH neutral at 7, so it acts like the switch you mentioned once it crystallizes

Boron is a P Dopant, and will form up with the Aluminum / Sodium Silicate as part of the structure of the crystal cage that holds the SO4 locked up, and that cage space should hold more SO4 than Alum / Sodium Silicate alone. I think that this combination will create a cage space that is a dodecahedron (12 Faces shape)
Would adding the boron P dopant, make the cell act like a PN junction...?

I do not quite understand where the Ammonium - (Nitrogen / Hydrogen) fits in the crystal though........

[hiops]

Thank you Chuk. That is what I used. Sorry about the confusion. .Liquid Silica is Sodium Silicate for me.

On the cell on the video I precisely used, 5% Sodium Silicate, 80% Alum, 5% Epson salts (for more H2O locked molecules) and 10% distilled water. (Percentage for volume).

Fausto.

Could somebody confirm tha t this is the right crystal for lead alum battery?
I've made lead alum from 7AH bike battery with only alum and water, the resting voltage after charge with SG monopole only 9V, which is too low, but the good thing aboit it, it can rotate SG for days at 7.5V without dropping it lower and it charges back fast with monopole.

[plengo]

Could somebody confirm tha t this is the right crystal for lead alum battery?
I've made lead alum from 7AH bike battery with only alum and water, the resting voltage after charge with SG monopole only 9V, which is too low, but the good thing aboit it, it can rotate SG for days at 7.5V without dropping it lower and it charges back fast with monopole.

I think we don't have a definite formula yet but guidelines.

Bedini clearly says that H2SO4 (Sulfuric Acid) is helpful in balancing the performance of the electrolyte. Molecules that have H2O locked in such as Epson salts, Sodium Silicate and Borax can be used with the intention of adding H2O to the crystal. Alum is the crystal medium (obviously).

So I think it is a matter of finding the combination of elements that can perform the following functions:
1 - Crystal Growth
2 - Neither Acid or Alkaline solution (balanced)
3 - Metal plates that will not corrode with Alum such as Lead
4 - Locked in H2O molecule (water) so that the cell can store energy
5 - An element that can separate the harmful SO4 (ion of the Sulfuric acid)
6 - The final electrolyte should be aiding the Ion transfer, in other words, the electrolyte must be conductive to electricity flow.

If I am wrong, please clarify guys.

Fausto.

[RS_]

We are also trying to create a crystal cage structure ie: Synthetic Zeolite, that will trap the H2OSO4, but will allow the H20 to flow in / out of the cage while trapping the SO4 in the cage as the cell charges and discharges, and the PH rocks back and forth between the charge and discharge state.......

This is still a Lead Acid battery, but with the SO4 part of the H2OSO4 Locked in a cage, so that it can not deposit on the Lead plates and cause sulfanation...

[RS_]

oops....................................

[Branch Gordon]

Ok running a new test to see if I have this battery nailed down. I grabbed a bunch of LEDs and put them on a breadboard. It's pulling around 290mA.

Got the curve running. Will post another update tomorrow when it evens out down at a lower voltage.

[John_Bedini]

RS,
I would not use borax it has not worked before and it might not work this time. I understand what your saying. This is something quite different, requires pure chemicals to work correct. Trying to substitute may not give the same results. You can find many ways to make Synthetic Zeolite. It must be very close to what I said. You can try what you want as I'm not going to say no to anything in your experiment. It can only be Zeolite when it dries out. I have some better pictures but I have not had time to post them. It seems to work the best with what I have used for chemicals. I have found it is not a Lead Acid battery after that, it's something much different in how it acts. The impedance of the cells is much different then what you have done in the past with Lead Acid Batteries and you must match it to the load. Have you built any of these crystal batteries before? Or are you just saying that you know this will work? I have never used things in a substitute mode, that is like changing a circuit that works to something you think works better and then when you do not get the results it's no good. Have not you and I been through this before. Please build to plan first and not confuse others with different chemicals, unless you know that it works exactly the same and can show us by video your experiment and the cell working. Do not confuse the voltage of where this battery is, in standing voltage, if it were Lead Acid it would stand at 12.67 or better. This battery at the highest point is 11.36 and some at 9.35. This is dependent on the construction of the battery used.

JB,

I have been following along here, and think that Borax would be a good 5 hydrate to add to the 2 other hydrates

NH4Al(SO4)2·12H2O Alum

Na2SiO2(OH)2·4H2O Sodium silicate

you said to add a 5 or 9 hydrate to the 2 above hydrates

Na2[B4O5(OH)4]·8H2O borax, this would be a octahydrate in a fully hydrated form. § Borax pentahydrate (Na2B4O7·5H2O) is a 5 hydrate, a partly dehydrated form, that is commonly sold as detergent ie: 20 Mule Team

borax, is Sodium, Boron oxide, hydrate

mixing correct proportions of these 3 would create a Synthetic Zeolite, and adding just enough SO4 to make the PH neutral at 7, so it acts like the switch you mentioned once it crystallizes

Boron is a P Dopant, and will form up with the Aluminum / Sodium Silicate as part of the structure of the crystal cage that holds the SO4 locked up, and that cage space should hold more SO4 than Alum / Sodium Silicate alone. I think that this combination will create a cage space that is a dodecahedron (12 Faces shape)
Would adding the boron P dopant, make the cell act like a PN junction...?

I do not quite understand where the Ammonium - (Nitrogen / Hydrogen) fits in the crystal though........

[John_Bedini]

Fausto,
Yes that is what you want to do, it does not make a big difference in the plates you use as long as the degrading can be contained, or the sulfate. You have a very good experiment of what can be done with the cell and you have been at this from the beginning. in other words you know what your doing. Your correct in the final stage of Ion transfer, it would be nice to get them to move one way and then recharge themselves back the other way without a power supply say, ambient room temperature. I think you have seen this before with these cells. Lead was a better choice to do this with.

What people should understand about Fausto is that he is a very advanced builder with these cells and has used Borax in things but I do not know about with lead as Hydrate 9 is something much different.

I think we don't have a definite formula yet but guidelines.

Bedini clearly says that H2SO4 (Sulfuric Acid) is helpful in balancing the performance of the electrolyte. Molecules that have H2O locked in such as Epson salts, Sodium Silicate and Borax can be used with the intention of adding H2O to the crystal. Alum is the crystal medium (obviously).

So I think it is a matter of finding the combination of elements that can perform the following functions:
1 - Crystal Growth
2 - Neither Acid or Alkaline solution (balanced)
3 - Metal plates that will not corrode with Alum such as Lead
4 - Locked in H2O molecule (water) so that the cell can store energy
5 - An element that can separate the harmful SO4 (ion of the Sulfuric acid)
6 - The final electrolyte should be aiding the Ion transfer, in other words, the electrolyte must be conductive to electricity flow.

If I am wrong, please clarify guys.

Fausto.

[John_Bedini]

@all,
The other thing I want to bring up about Alum, Ammonium Aluminum Sulphate, and not the other Alum, is that in the conversation with Lidmotor who is a very advanced builder with these cells and has conducted many experiments. It was talked about just how many metals can be used with this Alum and it's just not lead plates that work. This requires hours of research into metals and batteries not to much that has not been done it this field, but not in the Crystal form. I learn more each day. I do not have all the answers, but I have a long history with Lead Acid Batteries of all kinds. It has always been on my mind to get rid of the Lead Acid chemistry with Sulfuric Acid in some way. If this battery is formed right with added cells can supply the 12 volts as Chuck found out. I have a new battery I will video as I fill it and test. I also found out that a second hand glass blender works the best for mixing the chemicals.

[nickle989]

Hmm ... part of what I see happening down at the quantium level is that everything is in a state of flux trying to find the right partner but never being able to close but not quite ... we can cause an influence in though ... with the cyrstal battery / solid state battery very simmilar reactions. The mixture contains different builds of crystals some with even points and some with odd points ... these I want to call transmitters and recepters for the "mini electrical storm" that is happening, these fighting matrix's are trying to find an equalibrium together but never can as we are tapping the energy ... I liken to the concept of David Hamel, when I spoke with him ... take three sharpened pencils and stand them end on end of each other, with the slightest preasure/vibration they loose the balance and can never find balance again with out some outside force - this is how he envisioned his machine working the way that it did.

John B. it is good to be envigourated again. One of the things that I have been playing with is "locking up" different components in the crystal structures and "tricking" the cell ... I have gone from a .858 working volt to almost 1.52 working volt. It does take a long time testing and trusting my gut feeling when something should not work in "science" but the gut tells me it does. Hopefully this weekend I will be lead coating the copper and run some tests.

Earth Lights Group

We are on something.

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John It's to soon to tell but it looked like the stator motor in the earlier video I posted might be able to run well past the rated capacity of the battery. The feedback from generator coil seems to really like the impedance of the alum cells. To early to say for sure but I'll see.
Thanks John
John Hav. ......... ...........

[RS_]

JB

I have been studying the Zeolites in this context since you mentioned them, and how they produce the cage structure in the crystal lattice that can trap the SO4, but sill let the H2O pass in / out of the cage..... Before that, I had been studying the Zeolites in light of their filtering ability, to trap radioactive contaminants that may be in the rain water that I collect for my greenhouse Aquaponics system.
Backyard Aquaponics • View topic - RS's 5000gal System

You said to add a 5 or 9 hydrate to the alum and sodium silicate, so I was looking at some of the Boron based zeolite's Lattice, and thought that a boron or borax dopant might help make a better crystal lattice cage structure....... I was not trying to confuse any one...... Just asking if you thought it might help, or was the 5 hydrate you mentioned to add to the other 2 hydrates...........

Jack, Jeromy and I built several of the treated Copper Alum and Magnesium cells, and they are still working after almost a year.... Just add distilled water to bring them back to life.....
crystal battery testing.wmv - YouTube

We built several other cells, some in a thick aluminum can with magnesium, some of which we used epsom salt and/or borax in along with the alum....... some of them worked good, and were really strong cells for a while, and then slowly died out after a few days to a week or so........ these would work good in a emergency, if that is all you had to work with........

I will keep following along, and keep my mouth shut.........

[zardox]

Ok I have a new in the box Exide motorcycle battery. I have my ammonium aluminum sulfate. I have some sodium carbonate that I had purchased a while back to try as electrolyte in some bottle capacitors that I thought might work well here as well. Is it correct what was said earlier about wanting a neutral balance and needing to add a little sulfuric acid to the mix? I know that the alum is a little acidic but the sodium carbonate is over 11 the other direction.
Maybe I am out to lunch and for sure I don't have the knowledge that most of you have but I am trying to learn

[John_Bedini]

RS, Zardox,


I will post another video so everbody get's it. So just wait for that. The Zeolite is not the same type. So just hold on.

[John_Bedini]

An Answer to JohnHav,

changing impedance in the cells

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JohnHav,
I just point this out because others have seen this also. In my lab we have one battery that has been hanging at 2.78 volts for over a week now and fluxuating at the level of the diodes. I put the battery in a video. My mix is much different in this battery of which I explained on the Energy Science Forum. I will be posting a video of how I mixed the chemicals. This effect is very responsive to any kind of discharge and temp. Fausto's Chart also shows that. Chuck has a Crystal cell that he put on a video that has been running for over 3 weeks now under load at 45 Ma, it has out run his ni-cad. To match the impedance of the cell is very important. The mixture is also very important. Early in this group I said this would happen. Alum can do some things with metals people have not really explored. It's not that there are no Lead Alkaline batteries, many can be found but the balance of the chemicals is very important as it is a must in all the patents. In a solid crystal cell it is not reachable as it will degrade the components. That cell can draw from the environment and continue to power led's and oscillators but not with much power, 2 to 5 Ma. In the aqueous solution it must be balanced as the lead battery's chemistry will not build that balance, you must balance it. When I watch most of the videos of people doing this conversion I see nobody balancing the PH of the chemicals. Do yourself an experiment, Mix up your Alum in a clear state and start to add Sulfuric Acid watch what happens if right it will lock into crystals, Then you will know. The Alum Lead Battery is much different in the voltage and impedance if it were Lead Acid it would stand at 12.67 volts. But The Alum battery at the highest level can only stand at 11.34 or so and some at 9.35 that is depending on the lead plates in the battery. All your calculations must be adjusted in amp hrs at that Voltage the cells work at, then you must figure the impedance of the cells as they are in series and you will find what is across each one, voltage wise, Kirchhoff's Law. Only then can someone run a proper test on this battery. I always look at this as the voltage across each component is important. I bring up "Piigogine" because of the changing impedance in the cells, keep changing from one state to another, it's not stable unless it is balanced out. If in a crystal state you have much different problems to solve with this effect. I have out run my batteries capacity at the lab but it is far from dead.
I'm getting to old to keep trying to explain all this.

[Branch Gordon]

JB-

What you are suggesting (testing the PH before adding to the battery) is exactly what I'm planning to do when I convert my next battery. I still have that lead acid that is the same model as my converted alum battery. I'm shopping around for a decent PH meter that isn't going to break the bank. Any suggestions on that?

The curve on my alum battery is leveling out this morning at around 3V. Again, it's a 4AH battery...right now powering 290mA of LEDs. Been running for 23 hours now...and it's looking like it's gonna level out completely and keep running a looooong time. That's what I'm hoping. If it does, I'm gonna test the PH on that battery, and just duplicate it with the next battery.

You mentioned earlier you could wire these together to get to 12V. But when they first start out fully charged, the bank would be much higher than 12V. I was thinking I could just discharge them all down to where they level out, and then start using them at 12V...but they immediately bounce back up to around 5-6V when removing a load. Is that even a viable application?

An Answer to JohnHav,

changing impedance in the cells

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

JohnHav,
I just point this out because others have seen this also. In my lab we have one battery that has been hanging at 2.78 volts for over a week now and fluxuating at the level of the diodes. I put the battery in a video. My mix is much different in this battery of which I explained on the Energy Science Forum. I will be posting a video of how I mixed the chemicals. This effect is very responsive to any kind of discharge and temp. Fausto's Chart also shows that. Chuck has a Crystal cell that he put on a video that has been running for over 3 weeks now under load at 45 Ma, it has out run his ni-cad. To match the impedance of the cell is very important. The mixture is also very important. Early in this group I said this would happen. Alum can do some things with metals people have not really explored. It's not that there are no Lead Alkaline batteries, many can be found but the balance of the chemicals is very important as it is a must in all the patents. In a solid crystal cell it is not reachable as it will degrade the components. That cell can draw from the environment and continue to power led's and oscillators but not with much power, 2 to 5 Ma. In the aqueous solution it must be balanced as the lead battery's chemistry will not build that balance, you must balance it. When I watch most of the videos of people doing this conversion I see nobody balancing the PH of the chemicals. Do yourself an experiment, Mix up your Alum in a clear state and start to add Sulfuric Acid watch what happens if right it will lock into crystals, Then you will know. The Alum Lead Battery is much different in the voltage and impedance if it were Lead Acid it would stand at 12.67 volts. But The Alum battery at the highest level can only stand at 11.34 or so and some at 9.35 that is depending on the lead plates in the battery. All your calculations must be adjusted in amp hrs at that Voltage the cells work at, then you must figure the impedance of the cells as they are in series and you will find what is across each one, voltage wise, Kirchhoff's Law. Only then can someone run a proper test on this battery. I always look at this as the voltage across each component is important. I bring up "Piigogine" because of the changing impedance in the cells, keep changing from one state to another, it's not stable unless it is balanced out. If in a crystal state you have much different problems to solve with this effect. I have out run my batteries capacity at the lab but it is far from dead.
I'm getting to old to keep trying to explain all this.