How to Make a Bedini Crystal Battery

[Chuck Hupp]

Those with concern...

John is fine. We have been very busy in the audio side of Bedini upgrading existing amps and designing new ones.

Chuck Hupp

[John_Bedini]

Geoffrey,
Sorry, been very busy but I will be back soon. Been busy upgrading all the amplifiers, everybody wants them rebuilt all at once. Get back with you soon.I douse that kiln at 1500 degrees.

[HeavensPavement]

Thanks John and Chuck for popping in and letting know your OK.
I have been watching your videos over and over, awesome content, thank you!
I'm finally starting to play...
I'm coming at angle of working with what you got.
Some one gave batteries that where destined for the dump. The connecting bar for the red plates, for a lack of a better term, rooted off, of course the batteries where dry. At lot of the grey plates where in good shape.
I know this is considered junk to most people , but combined with the lack of funds and the desire to see what can be done...
?in wanting to make these cells, can I grind up the red plates and proceed like in the video when you cast your own.
?should I heat the red plates first, or not, or is there any other process needed.
@ John I just noticed that you have a DVD out on crystal batteries....what content is on it?
Thanks John for your willing to give, may you receive a hundred fold return....
...Heavens Pavement....

[GMANG73]

Hi all,

Grant from Australia I am interested in making some crystal batteries although getting the Ammonium aluminium sulfate might be tricky I am trying to get it from ebay.
Has anyone figured the other liquid that makes the crystals near instantly? I have nbeen watching all of the videos Thanks to john chuck and everyone involved.
Really good work guys.

G.G.

[GMANG73]

Another element

I think we don't have a definite formula yet but guidelines.

Bedini clearly says that H2SO4 (Sulfuric Acid) is helpful in balancing the performance of the electrolyte. Molecules that have H2O locked in such as Epson salts, Sodium Silicate and Borax can be used with the intention of adding H2O to the crystal. Alum is the crystal medium (obviously).

So I think it is a matter of finding the combination of elements that can perform the following functions:
1 - Crystal Growth
2 - Neither Acid or Alkaline solution (balanced)
3 - Metal plates that will not corrode with Alum such as Lead
4 - Locked in H2O molecule (water) so that the cell can store energy
5 - An element that can separate the harmful SO4 (ion of the Sulfuric acid)
6 - The final electrolyte should be aiding the Ion transfer, in other words, the electrolyte must be conductive to electricity flow.

If I am wrong, please clarify guys.

Fausto.

Would polyacrylamide copolymer gel (Garden water crystals) be a good addition?
Uses of polyacrylamide
One of the largest uses for polyacrylamide is to flocculate solids in a liquid. This process applies to wastewater treatment, and processes like paper making. Most polyacrylamide is supplied in a liquid form. The liquid is subcategorized as solution and emulsion polymer. Even though these products are often called 'polyacrylamide', many are actually copolymers of acrylamide and one or more other chemical species, such as an acrylic acid or a salt thereof. The main consequence of this is to give the 'modified' polymer a particular ionic character.
The ionic form of polyacrylamide has found an important role in the potable water treatment industry. Trivalent metal salts like ferric chloride and aluminium chloride are bridged by the long polymer chains of polyacrylamide. This results in significant enhancement of the flocculation rate. This allows water treatment plants to greatly improve the removal of total organic content (TOC) from raw water.
Polyacrylamide is often used in molecular biology applications as a medium for electrophoresis of proteins and nucleic acids in a technique known as PAGE.
Stability

In dilute aqueous solution, such as is commonly used for Enhanced Oil Recovery applications, polyacrylamide polymers are susceptible to chemical, thermal, and mechanical degradation. Chemical degradation occurs when the labile amine moiety hydrolyzes at elevated temperature or pH, resulting in the evolution of ammonia and a remaining carboxyl group. Thus, the degree of anionicity of the molecule increases. Thermal degradation of the vinyl backbone can occur through several possible radical mechanisms, including the autooxidation of small amounts of iron and reactions between oxygen and residual impurities from polymerization at elevated temperature. Mechanical degradation can also be an issue at the high shear rates experienced in the near-wellbore region. However, cross-linked variants of polyacrylamide have shown greater resistance to all of these methods of degradation, and have proved much more stable

I may be way off although I figured this ticked a few boxes from fausto in theory. Locked in H2O, Crystal growth,would the water crystals also stop the crystals from expanding too much? or opposite? it should aid the ionic effect.
I have no chemicals to play with although I thought I would add.
I am a simple man although I really do appreciate you guys trying to make a better world.
That and I couldn't sleep p.s. John your ssg circuit is pretty cool I never had anything to do with electronics and I am fasinated in the gift you have given.
Well test a theory. they are cheap if you havent already.
Best Regards,

G.G.

[arne v]

Hi,

1.
Import-purchase; Alum from Ebay?
Compare prices!

2.
How to make crystal battery
Copper Magnesium, Alum?
Recommended Johns, Dvd # 27"
step by step.
CRYSTAL BATTERY BASICS with John Bedini DVD 27

arne v

[GMANG73]

John Mentioned this,

"I have been testing this theory for months now, but I did not want to say anything until I was sure what was going on. The mix was very simple 50% Alum (Ammonium Aluminum Silicate) and 50% (Sodium Carbonate) "

I thought the Alum we were supposed to use was Ammonium aluminium sulfate food grade not Ammonium Aluminum Silicate.
Can someone please clarify ?
I havent read all the post although most of them and watched most of the videos they are all good data. I appreciate the hours people are seflesly sharing.
I was a swimmming pool operator for about 8 years about 10 years ago and I used common alum sulphate about twice a week to make a flock to catch particles and clarify the water.
I also used soda ash and one thing I learnt was that all pools are out of balance and they can never be in balance they are overfed or hungry (langlier watergram)
My knowledge is limited and I am finding out how little I know about most of this stuff due to the depth of experience that surrounds this forum. though I am a very determined person.
I live in Australia and it does seem hard to get the Ammonium aluminium sulfate food grade although I ordered some from USA from ebay. so time will tell.
I hope people are still posting on this thread as it seems like a great fuel source. and safe and cheap.
Praise to the people who are still chipping and posting videos and information. When I can afford the dvd I will get one hopefully for christmas.
Thanks again Mr John Bedini and Chuck.

[geoffrey sr miller]

Geoffrey,
Sorry, been very busy but I will be back soon. Been busy upgrading all the amplifiers, everybody wants them rebuilt all at once. Get back with you soon.I douse that kiln at 1500 degrees.

Hi John

How long do you put the copper in kiln for at 1500 degrees until it turns black?

Are you and Chuck still going to work on the crystal cells, after you finish getting the SG plastic unit ready to sell at the end of Dec.?

Have you and Chuck done anything else with the self running oscillator / battery unit that you built?

Thank You and have great day!


Geoffrey

[HeavensPavement]

P[QUOTE=GMANG73;4175]John Mentioned this,

"I have been testing this theory for months now, but I did not want to say anything until I was sure what was going on. The mix was very simple 50% Alum (Ammonium Aluminum Silicate) and 50% (Sodium Carbonate) "

I thought the Alum we were supposed to use was Ammonium aluminium sulfate food grade not Ammonium Aluminum Silicate.
I might be wrong..but my understanding is the video where John shows the chemicals and in a post he gives the mix...that this compound is that...ammonium aluminum sulfate is part of the mix...
I too got all my chems from eBay .
I have not played with the carbonate mix yet....working on being able to pour my own plates.
Can someone please clarify ?
Greetings from the Far North by the way....

[plengo]

and one more video showing more details about corrosion on this cell: Crystal Cell 7 - Corrosion ? I think not - YouTube

I think that there is very minimal if no corrosion.

Fausto.

[GMANG73]

Alum from ebay about $13.50 to get to my door/takes about 1 month, not viable, amount = 53 grams not enough to even seed then grow a larger crystal though I did get small formations of cystals I did not have enough to perform the cyrtalization of the seed crystal.
There is definently a difference between Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate and Aluminum Sulphate the later I have used for about a decade(I tried to seed this and it did not work mabye the 1kg($10) from bunnings was too fine?) its a floculant amoung other things. It can be brought cheap and it easy to get even in bulk you can get it from your local produce store, bunnings, pool suppliers ect.
Wikapedia has them as different elements.
I am currently trying to source kilogram amounts of Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate into the country unless anyone else knows of a vendor.?
I will prefer to follow what John B said is use the Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate if possible.
Are there any Ozzies who are able to purchace Ammonium Aluminum Sulfate?
Best Regards,

Grant.

[Bzar]

Crystal Battery Info Summary So Far

I've read and watched everything here, and many other places. In an attempt to understand and communicate the information in a useful manor here is a summary. I hope this info gives new experimenters a place to start.

Thanks all for your sharing, hopefully it continues from all.

A. The Battery
There are different results with different batteries. The types of batteries being used for Alum batteries are:

(1) Dry / charged unused batteries – often the ones from Wal-Mart
(2) Dry / charged used batteries – often explained as “dead” lead acid batteries
(3) Wet / charged unused batteries
(4) Wet / charged used batteries – also often explained as “dead” lead acid batteries
(5) Unformed and uncharged battery newly built with lead and/or a combination of other metals.

Build details regarding the different batteries:

(1) Dry / charged (or pre-formed by the manufacturer) unused batteries – often the ones from Wal-Mart where you just add the acid, charge, and away you go.
- Note 1: Better results from these batteries if you add the acid and charge the battery before adding an Alum mix. This better forms the plates. Save the S04 (discussed below)
- Note 2: Use Mix 1, 2 or 3 (below)
- Process: Fill with acid if not already. Charge. Empty acid. Let dry (some say). Add mix. Charge/Discharge few times to form crystals.

(2) Dry / charged used batteries – often explained as “dead” lead acid batteries because they were allowed to dry out…presumably after bad sulfaction or defect creating a useless state.
- Note 1: Advised to rinse the battery out with distilled water. Do not use baking soda to “neutralize” the battery acid.
- Note 2: May be a good idea to open the battery up and look at the plates if you’re unsure of their condition. Alum can’t restore damaged plates. If the plates are badly damaged (usually the + plates) due to degradation, then take the those plates out and use just the – plates in a newly created battery…however with less capacity.
- Note 3: Plates created by just the – lead plates can have lead oxide and an Alum mix introduced into holes drilled into the + lead plates for an increase charge??
- Note 4: New and old plates will need a forming charge. Because the plates have been in S04 they need not be formed in S04 again. The plates can be put in an Alum and distilled water solution…have the current reversed on them to release old sulfacion (ie. + = - and - = +) for about 30 mins. Then form the plates normally with a normal forming charge (+ = + and - = -)
- Note 4: Use Mix 1, 2, or 3
- Process: Use tips above. Add mix. Reverse Charge. Charge/Discharge few times to form crystals.

(3) Wet / charged unused batteries. Described as buying a new filled and charged (plates formed) battery.
- Note 1: ensure the plates are formed, dump the S04 safely and save it (discussed below).
- Note 2: Use Mix 1, 2, or 3
- Process: Charge. Empty acid. Let dry (some say). Add mix. Charge/Discharge few times to form crystals.

(4) Wet / charged used batteries – also often explained as “dead” lead acid batteries
- Note 1: Advised to rinse the battery out with distilled water after removing the S04 safely and storing for later. Do not use baking soda to “neutralize” the battery acid.
-Note 2: May be a good idea to open the battery up and look at the plates if you’re unsure of their condition. Alum can’t restore terribly damaged plates. If the plates are badly damaged (usually the + plates) due to degradation, then take those plates out and use just the – plates in a newly created battery…with less capacity presumably.
- Note 3: Plates created by just the – lead plates can have lead oxide and an Alum mix introduced into holes drilled into the + lead plates for an increase charge??
- Note 4: New and old plates will need a forming charge. Because the plates have been in S04 they need not be formed in S04 again. The plates can be put in Alum and distilled water solution…have the current reversed on them to release old sulfacion (ie. + = - and - = +) for about 30 mins. Then form the plates normally with a normal forming charge (+ = + and - = -)
- Note 4: Use Mix 1, 2, or 3
- Process: Charge. Empty acid. Let dry (some say). Add mix. Reverse Charge. Charge/Discharge few times to form crystals.

(5) Unformed and uncharged battery newly built with lead and/or a combination of other metal plates.
- Note 1: Lead / Lead oxide battery will need forming charges ie. charge/discharge until oxides are created.
- Note 2: Lead / Zinc will need forming charge ie. charge/discharge until oxides are created.
- Note 3: Not mentioned yet….Iron / Nickel….Lead / Nickel…Nickel / Cadmium.
- Note 4: Use mix 1, 2, 3, 4
- Process: Make plates. Combine plates with insulators. Add mix. Form plates. Charge/Discharge few times to form crystals.


B. The Mix:
Unfortunately there’s no precise mixture explained in clear terms, so I’ve pieced together different mix combo’s as they were disclosed. So pick a battery and mix combo?….I guess it’s up to you to experiment.

Mix 1: Alum and Distilled water. That’s it. Mix to a consistency of the “Alum water” being slippery to the touch. I’ve read ratios of 3 to 1 water to Alum. 10 to 1 water to Alum, and anywhere in between. It is noted to heat the distilled water to around 120f to get all the Alum to mix in well. Do not use tap water!

Mix 2: 60% Alum, 40% SO4 - if you have 200mL to fill the battery you need 120mL Alum solution and 80mL SO4 solution.
For example start with 120mL of distilled water heated to 120F (microwave oven), add the Alum and keep mixing until you get that slippery feeling and all the Alum is dissolved and then add the 80mL of SO4 solution. Use the syringe to put 33mL of the total mix in each cell.

Mix 3: - 3 cups of water - 1 cup of Alum - 1/2 Cup of Sodium Silicate - 1/8 cup SO4 - 1 Tablespoon of Hydrate 9 or 5.
- Mix the Alum and water first.
- Do not let the mixture gel up unless you want to do something else (ie. Paste to plates or create a gel type battery) keep mixing, then just let it sit for a while (I think till crystals start to form?) and then mix and draw the liquid out for the battery. John explained It's not hard to make this mix you can see it forms the crystals when mixing the Alum with the acid, then you stop and mix in the hydrate, and that will then form another crystal.

Mix 4: 50% Alum and 50% Sodium Carbonate. The reaction between the Alum and the Carbonate (exothermic) must stop before adding to the battery. The mix is then watered down after the reaction to be put in the battery. This mix is used in John and Chucks Lead / Zinc cell.



C. Theories/observations/conclusions
1. Plates must be formed properly for the battery to work properly. Also damaged plates will give damaged results.
2. Battery impedance or battery internal resistance is key for determining how well these batteries work.
Branch and John explained a formula to determine this internal battery resistance, and this is how you do it…

Find These Values…
Battery Voltage = ??
Resistor (load) ohms = ??
Battery Voltage Drop over a resistor (load) = ??

Then calculate the internal resistance by using this formula…
Battery Voltage – Battery Voltage Drop = A
A x Resistor Ohms = B
B / Battery Voltage = Battery Internal Resistance.

Example: (using a 12v battery and a 12 ohm resistor with 10.5 volts after the resistor...ie.voltage drop)
12.00 -10.50 = 1.5V
1.5 * 12 Ohms = 18
18 / 12.00 = 1.5 Ohms Internal Resistance

3. There needs to be a “balance” in the mix for the battery to produce good results. A clear way to determine “balance” is not explained in clear terms…Rather the balance is found by experimenting with the mix (more or less of the chemicals) and the battery internal resistance created by the mix. You can try to figure a good combo by looking at the internal resistance, the mix ph, and the discharge charting/tests done on the battery after it's conversion.
4. The mixes are generally noted as acidic. Ph’s between 4 and 7 are noted. What works in one battery doesn't seem to always work in another?? Jury still out on this point.
5. The Alum solution protects the battery plates by crystallizing or keeping the S04 from sulfating the plates. In this regard there seems to be two types of mixes. Ones that crystallizes to protect the battery plates (mix 3?), and ones that don't (mix 1, 2& 4?).
6. Mixing amounts, and clear mixing instructions aren't really given…thus creating confusion around the entire process. Also makes it fun to experiment. Share as much as you feel comfortable with I guess.
7. Safety: acid’s and lead plates can cause health risks….use at own risk…take safety precautions and cleaning practices in mind.
8. Types of plate insulators don't seem to be a big concern except for with the lead/zinc battery as they create dendrites and need a more solid insulator.


D. Where to get parts
Batteries: Where you get your battery really depends how much you can spend, and what size battery you want to convert. Some places to get them are: eBay | Battery Venders/Manufacturers | Craig’s list | Wal-Mart | Canadian Tire | Auto shops | make your own - ie. get metals, form plates, make case | Steal them from your enemies car | etc.

Chemicals:
• Aluminum Ammonium Sulfate (Alum): My Spice Sage | NutsOnline | eBay | pickling stores | stores.photoformulary.com | grocery stores spice isle | various venders online
• Sodium Silicate (grade 40): McMaster-Carr | shop.chemicalstore.com
• Sodium metasilicate pentahydrate or Hydrate 5: Sigma-Aldrich | Ward's
• Sulfuric Acid: Left over from emptied batteries | shop.chemicalstore.com | Auto Stores

Let me know if this is helpful or needs corrections...
cheers.

[ocallanan]

Hi All,

Just seen the following.

NRGLAB PTE LTD Auction Feb.5,2013 - YouTube

Method of construction starts at 4:07.

Appears to be an Aluminium - Lead (Lead not confirmed just an observation) Crystal Battery with 3 ingredients mixed with distilled water to form the crystal between the plates. They don't claim it is a battery and claim it converts ambient heat energy.

I got this from here.

Directory:NRGLab Pte. Ltd. SH boxes - PESWiki

If this is real, it seems that all that is needed is the recipe and replication. But even without the recipe, if real it demonstrates the huge potential in this line of research...

Regards,

Ossie

[GMANG73]

It's good to see people sharing on this "How to Make a Bedini Crystal Battery"
Unfortunatly is seems to be near dead that John and Chuck are not around.
I am sure that they would want us too share our experiments and try too improve this new age concept of a crystal battery.
Just like computers that are linked together to work a problem.
We could pool our potential and SHARE our findings on this topic.
I am still finiding it hard to find Ammonium aluminum sulfate and no it is not viable from ebay.
I had found some labs although they have shut down over the christmas period.
Please keep the posts of results and videos of this great tech.

G.G.

[John_Koorn]

John and Chuck are just waiting for people to replicate and post their results. They have given everybody everything they need to know about replicating your own crystal batteries and having success.

John K.